need help with .45 acp reloading

[tmckay2]

ive got primers, brass and bullets, but now i need powder. the problem is the bullets i have are 230 grain copper plated. they were cheaper so i went with them, possibly a bad idea. now i can't find any load data for the plated, lee only has accur load data, so basically three poweders i could use. i was hoping for more options. anyone know anything that might help?

[SA Friday]

Load plated like FMJ's, but expect the loads to need less powder to get the velocity needed. Clays is king of the hill for 45 acp loads IMO, but Solo 1000 works very well also. A list of powders that would work well for you:

Clays
Titegroup
VV N320
Solo 1000
Unique (it works but the ones above are better choices)

I would recommend starting out at about 3.7 to 3.8 gr of Clays and work up over a chrony till you hit the velocity you want while checking each step up in powder for pressure signs. 3.9 to 4.1gr of Clays should be about the right area depending on your OAL for the bullet.

With plated you can get away with using Titegroup. It's also a pretty good powder, but don't use it with lead or moly-coated bullets. It's just too hot and you get coal-train levels of smoke.

Your OAL will depend on the bullet profile. If they are SWC bullets, check for a lead SWC of same weight and similar profile for a good estimate on length. If the profile is round, look for a FMJ of similar profile and same weight. I would suspect with either 1.225 to 1.25 OAL is going to be in the ballpark. Check your mag OAL and chamber/throat to really get a handle on just how long you can load. It's gun dependent, but typically the mag is the more restricting factor in just how long you might be able to load.


Based on your initial post, I suspect you haven't ventured out to reloading areas outside the data provided in reloading charts. Understand that reloading charts cannot cover every possibility of bullet and powder combo out there, so manufacturers limit the data to what's most common and to what they've tested. When you have components that don't exactly match, you have to experiment a little to figure out what works. The keys to this are: use a chrono to determine velocity, start at light loads and work up slowly, check every single piece of brass and primer for excessive pressures. Once you have a load that isn't maxing out pressure signs and you are getting the velocity you want, test for accuracy. If the accuracy is there, load the rest. It takes time to do this, but it's really the only way. You should be following these steps for the stuff that you find in the reloading charts anyway. Never accept that what's in the chart is what's actually happening in YOUR gun.

For example, 1911 barrels and Glock 20 barrels are completely different. 1911's have std lands and groves. G20 barrels are ploygonal barrels and are overboared towards the muzzle (glock barrels go from tight in the throat to slightly looser at the crown). Very different results with the same ammo.

Lastly, you will have to check your seating and crimping die to ensure you are not overcrimping and splitting the plating of the bullet. you want the crimp to smooth out the belling and nothing more. If you split the plating, you may start to see some lead build-up. It also helps to add a little more belling to the case mouth as to not scrape the plating when seating. Yep, cheaper bullets take more work to reload, but not a ton more work. Just go slow and really dial in the dies for the new bullet. Over crimping can also cause plated bullets to tumble. They are soft enough to lose some of their diameter if over crimped. Hell, crimp is really a bad term here, you really just want to smooth out the case on the side of the bullet, not crimp.

Anyway, I ramble... Good luck.

[tmckay2]

thanks for the reply! that does help clear it up. i actually ended up getting some winchester 231 powder, and i have load data for fmj. would you say then, that because the weight is less, i should start out with less powder than what it says for the fmj?

[SA Friday]

thanks for the reply! that does help clear it up. i actually ended up getting some winchester 231 powder, and i have load data for fmj. would you say then, that because the weight is less, i should start out with less powder than what it says for the fmj?

Plated bullets don't weigh less per se, but have less friction resistance when traveling down the barrel. The thin copper coating with lead underneath cause less resistance than a full copper jacketed bullet.

The winchester charts show 4.2 to 5.3gr of 231 for a FMJ bullet and 4.3 to 5.3gr of 231 for a LRN bullet. I would start out at 4.3 and work up. Build aprx 15 loads of each charge in .1gr incriments from 4.3 to about 4.6gr and see what velocities you are getting. Record the velocities along with all of the other pertinent data. I keep all of my reload notes in a notebook, and keep it on the shelf next to the reloader right next to the reloading manuals. You can get pretty anal retentive with the data, but at the very least, you need to keep: the reload recipe, gun make and model shot from, average velocity and std deviation in your notes. I also keep some basic weather info in my notes if I'm using a powder that is known to be temperature sensitive. 231 is reverse temp sensitive. The colder it gets the hotter it shoots. This shouldn't be an issue with a load in the 740-800 fps area, but they will feel more stout when shot in the cold and have higher chamber pressures.

If you plan on shooting these loads in competition, you need to know what power factor to shoot for. 165pf is the minimum for major in USPSA, and acutally pretty soft target loads IMO (most load to a 170pf just in case). In 45 ACP, you could be looking at pf's of 190 to 200 for stout defensive loads. If they are for plinking, shoot them until you get a comfortable and accurate load with lower pressures that reliably cycles the gun. With a 230gr bullet, 740fps is about 170pf and should reliably cycle the gun unless you are running a super heavy recoil spring.

I would make a few test round to determine seating depth and cartridge OAL. The test round I make I don't add primer or powder; I simply resize and bell and then seat long till I find a length that works in the mag and the chamber. Most pistols are not finiky about COAL for accuracy, but longer is better (like she said) in most firearms. See if you can get away with 1.25 OAL, if not, then down size till the load isn't binding in the mag. I wouldn't recommend going any shorter than 1.2 if you don't have to. 1.2 is pretty much the COAL length you will see in factory with a 230gr bullet, although some do vary.

During chrono testing, you see any overpressure signs, stop. Don't go any further. Figure out what is causing the high chamber pressures and son't shoot any of the hotter ammo. I doubt this will be the case with 231 if you follow the above, but like I said, every gun is different.

[SA Friday]

Damn, one last thing... after you have the COAL test loads at the right length, then reset the die to smooth out the case wall against the bullet. Once the length and crimp are set, test the round for set-back issues. Most call this the thumb test: put the nose of the bullet against the side of the reloading bench and push against it with your thumb to see if the bullet is going to push back in the case. If it sets back without a enough pressure to cause your thumb discomfort, you probably need to tweek the crimp die a little tighter. Do this until there is no bullet set-back and your thumb is uncomfortable when pressing.

I've gone to a resizing die called a Lee "undersized" resizing die in all of my semi-auto pistol calibers. It sizes the case just a little under what you would normally see from the other resizers. After seating, you get an hourglass shape in the case. This virtually eleminates the potential for bullet set-back. Not saying any other die won't work just fine, because they do, but you have to be more anal with the crimp die without the undersized die. I shoot a lot of moly coated bullets and this allows me to not crimp too tight and possibly split the coating.

Once again, I ramble...

[ryanek9freak]

I have not crimped one single 45 round I've ever loaded, as my seating die doesn't crimp. I see the value in doing it, but I've never had any issues with being able to push the bullet further in with my hands.

[SA Friday]

I have not crimped one single 45 round I've ever loaded, as my seating die doesn't crimp. I see the value in doing it, but I've never had any issues with being able to push the bullet further in with my hands.

Ya, like I said in my earlier post, it's not really crimping but smoothing out the case onto the bullet. I brought this up because I have found that plated bullets can be a little slippery in the case after seating. It's usually not a problem with 45 and 9mm, but I have had some issues with 40 cal. It's better to check than to not.

[tmckay2]

i finally found some load data and it seems like it won't be a problem. out of curiousity, would running lead round nose bullets through my 1911 be a problem? ive heard whispers of lead bullets causing problems in 1911's but never heard why or if it is true. what say ye?

[SA Friday]

Lead rounds are mostly problems for pistols with polygonal rifling in the barrel. Polygonal rifling relies on the bullet being squeezed into the rifling and then not under spinning (like skid) while going through the barrel. The advantage of this type of barrel is longer barrel life and faster velocities. Some lead bullets can be too soft for this and acutally skid while traveling down the barrel. This leaves HUGE deposits of lead in the barrel as it passes through. Regular rifling has edges to it and grabs the bullet better per se, stopping it from under spinning.

The second issue with lead bullets is improper diameter. If the lead bullet is too narrow, which can be .001" narrower then needed, it might not seal off in the throat after firing and you get the hot gasses from powder searing down the side of the bullet. This will also leave lead deposits in the barrel.

Third issue is lack of or improper lube on the lead bullet. This will also leave lead deposits.

OK, with all that said, lead bullets are not that big a deal. Stick with companies that are making good hard lead bullets. Lead bullets are a mixture of tin and lead. I prefer the ones that are 95% lead and 5% tin. Any less tin and the lead is just too soft IMO. Super hard lead bullets like you would see in a 44mag 300gr lead flat nose bullet for hunting are very hard and you really have to watch your chamber pressures with these. The super hard mixes usually have gas checks on the back and are really made for hunting.

Load them up and shoot them. After about 15 rounds, pull the barrel and check. If no lead, you definately don't have skidding going on and more than likely no diameter or lube problems. I do clean my barrels more often when shooting lead bullets when I'm starting out to look for build up. If I'm getting build up in the barrel, I then decide if it's going to be an easy clean or stop using that brand of bullet.

I've shot tons of lead bullets out of both my 1911's and 2011's in both 45 ACP and 40 S&W. I prefer moly coated lead bullets from Black Bullets International or Precision Bullets (both sell over the internet). I've been using these almost exclusively out of my competition guns over the last year or so because they are cheaper and just as good as FMJ's. The last couple of months, I've been averaging about 2500 rounds a month, so cost is a huge issue for me, and fortunately I haven't had to sacrifice anything in return. Both BBI and Precision use hard enough lead to not be an issue and the moly coating is pretty good. No build up at all.

I do break in the barrels with JHP's before switching to lead bullets. I like to shoot about 500 to 1k FMJ bullets throught the barrel first. It smooths out any machining left from manufacturing. These burrs can cause some leading too.