2015 Fatal police shootings. Averaging 2 a day for the year.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Hmmm ... the headline made me think they were focusing on the shootings OF police officers and I was stunned to think the Washington ComPost might actually publish a balanced thoughtful piece of journalism but upon actually reading the article, I was reassured that the sun will rise in the east, the moon will continue to orbit the Earth for eons, and the ComPost will be reflexively liberal. It does the usual trick of sort-of telling the other side much further down in the article so they can claim "balance" but the presentation upfront (which is typically the only part most people read) is firmly weighted: "police gunned down a 17-year-old girl joyriding", "police shot an elderly man after his son asked them to make sure he was okay", "these shootings, many of which began as minor incidents and suddenly escalated into violence", "shot three times by Denver police officers as she and a carload of friends allegedly tried to run them down", etc.

The three tidbits you pulled out are good bits in a well-written but flawed article. The context they added to the shootings was incomplete and designed to reinforce their underlying thesis: that police are out of control. I have no doubt they classified Michael Brown as an "unarmed victim" when the reality is he was a violent thug who showed lethal potential without weaponry.

I would add a fourth observation from the article: law enforcement needs more less-lethal options for certain situations. By "law enforcement", I mean the whole panoply of people who are charged with maintaining an orderly society. There is probably a limited role for some community service officers who can provide first stage response to some of the probably non-lethal situations like general welfare checks. I have no doubt there is an aspect of the hammer syndrome in this (when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail) but I also suspect it's applicable in only a small minority of cases and we would see an increase in officer casualties so we as a society would need to weight the opposing costs and benefits.

One of the questions I don't see being asked by most of the media is, what price are we as a society willing to pay. I'm pretty sure Darren Wilson thought he was in a "minor incident" of getting some pedestrians to walk in a safer zone than the middle of the street when the situation "suddenly escalated into violence" and I don't think he's the one who escalated into violence from his car seat. The media elite don't want Americans defending themselves, saying the police can handle it all, then they proceed to try to demonize and castrate the police but are shocked and surprised when crime goes up as in Baltimore.

Question for the cops on this board: have you seen much or any media doing ride-alongs? It seems to me reporters who covered the crime beat 50 years ago were more familiar with the daily situations faced by the cops. How prevalent are media "embeds" in law enforcement these days?

[JohnnyDrama]

How many more people will get shot before we, as a society, figure out that our actions have consequences?

2. Do not run from the police. Running from the police will significantly increase the odds of something very bad happening to you.

3. Don't handle dangerous or seemingly dangerous (toy guns) objects when the police are present and giving you commands

What do people think will happen if they do any of these?

our entitlement society which encompasses not only monetary entitlements but behavioral entitlements

You choose to dress and act like a gangsta, punk, or hippie, and that is probably how people will treat you. While "profiling" may be against the law, maintaining a high level of situational awareness is good practice. There's a fine line I'm sure.

I see this social phenomena (general distrust of the law and disrespect for the law and each other) as a trend in the cyclical nature of cultures. Sort of the fruit of the seed that was planted 40 years ago.

[lead_magnet]

Everyone always cites the "X amount of officers were killed in such and such year" . How many were shot an survived? How many were shot at? How many stabbed, assaulted, etc.? It's a lot more than 50. If you're using body count on both sides of the line as a comparison that's probably not the most accurate scientific starting point.

Using the body count vs. body count statistics just doesn't make sense. There are a multitude of factors that have influence on that. Cops usually are wearing body armor, have training, and a fully functional firearm loaded with quality ammo, whereas there opponent might be armed with substandard equipment, no armor, and no training.

Lets take a specific incident for example. In Colorado there was an agency several years ago that was involved in a shooting. During this incident two officers were shot, on in the left thigh one in the right arm, both survived. The man who shot them was killed by a single round to the heart. If we use the body count vs. body count method, the police killed 1 citizen, suffering no losses, so by that account they are unjustified because the body count tips in their favor? That's flawed logic at its finest.

Unfortunately there aren't hard numbers to look at that will tell us how many times a cop used unnecessary force against a citizen vs. how many cops were subjected to unnecessary force from a citizen. If such statistics were even possible I would imagine it would quiet down this argument quite a bit.

I'll close with this. If the Police are using force justifiably, I HOPE TO ALL HELL THE BODY COUNT IS IN THEIR FAVOR. I'd rather see 0 cops killed vs XXX bandits, and 0 innocents killed. But life isn't an episode of Dora the Explorer where we can shoo away Swiper with just our words.

Yes, I just used a Dora the Explorer reference...

[Bailey Guns]

I had two separate instances where I was not only justified in using lethal force, but should have (and dozens of others that could've gone either way). But because of all the armchair quarterbacks out there (you know who you are), I didn't at the risk of my own life. I was stabbed in the face with a screwdriver by one guy...think is was 92 or 94...don't remember for sure. I didn't shoot because we were alone on the side of Hwy 285 in the middle of the night and I knew I'd be raked over the coals by people who had an unlimited amount of time to make a decision while reviewing the incident from the sidelines. So, instead, we fought for our lives for about 6 and half minutes before I was able to even call for help...help that was 15 mins away. When it was all over I'd hit the guy with my ASP over 35 times and broken both bones in his left forearm. All the while he continued to fight and didn't feel a thing. I suffered a stab wound in my face, two sprained knees, a lower back injury and a broken nose. There's a lot more that goes into police work than getting a pair of running shoes. Sometimes it isn't the bad guys who are the true enemies of the police.

And that doesn't even count getting sued for $14.5 million for something I didn't even do just on the word of some punk.

Yeah...some of the general public is a real joy to be around.

Cops are given a greater latitude in their use of force because they are charged with upholding order. Sometimes that gets ugly. The public wants it done but they don't want to see it because it is so ugly.

Yes, there are abuses. In the grand scheme of things they're like plane crashes...few and far between. Cops make thousands of arrests every day and have millions of interactions with people every day. On very, very few occasions, the police act inappropriately. Go figure. They're human beings.

[Jer]

I had two separate instances where I was not only justified in using lethal force, but should have (and dozens of others that could've gone either way). But because of all the armchair quarterbacks out there (you know who you are), I didn't at the risk of my own life. I was stabbed in the face with a screwdriver by one guy...think is was 92 or 94...don't remember for sure. I didn't shoot because we were alone on the side of Hwy 285 in the middle of the night and I knew I'd be raked over the coals by people who had an unlimited amount of time to make a decision while reviewing the incident from the sidelines. So, instead, we fought for our lives for about 6 and half minutes before I was able to even call for help...help that was 15 mins away. When it was all over I'd hit the guy with my ASP over 35 times and broken both bones in his left forearm. All the while he continued to fight and didn't feel a thing. I suffered a stab wound in my face, two sprained knees, a lower back injury and a broken nose. There's a lot more that goes into police work than getting a pair of running shoes. Sometimes it isn't the bad guys who are the true enemies of the police.

And that doesn't even count getting sued for $14.5 million for something I didn't even do just on the word of some punk.

Yeah...some of the general public is a real joy to be around.

Cops are given a greater latitude in their use of force because they are charged with upholding order. Sometimes that gets ugly. The public wants it done but they don't want to see it because it is so ugly.

Yes, there are abuses. In the grand scheme of things they're like plane crashes...few and far between. Cops make thousands of arrests every day and have millions of interactions with people every day. On very, very few occasions, the police act inappropriately. Go figure. They're human beings.

From what I've seen you are one of the good ones so things said may not apply to you. With all due respect your situation probably warranted more force and I would be much quicker to defend you in your use of force in that situation than I would these people. Therein lies the problem. You don't have to justify/defend everyone with a badge. This is a massive mistake made all across the country on a daily basis and it gives the general public a solid foot to stand on on their distrust of ALL those with a badge. If you (proverbial, not you specifically) can defend ANYONE with a badge regardless of the details than what's to prevent a citizen from judging negatively for the same reasons? If more of those with a badge come forward to speak out against those who do the wrong thing then faith from society would come a long ways to being restored. Instead it's the band of brothers defending another badge when anyone with the common sense that god gave a doorknob can plainly see they fucked up. In this situation they had the two things in their favor that you did not: time & numbers. When you're by yourself and back-up is 15min away and you're ambushed the deck it stacked in your favor to use force IMO. I get the 'I want to go home mentality' and it applies to many situations but we've crossed the line where it applies to EVERY situation at the expense of those you're sworn to protect. Again, a lot of what I said wasn't directed towards you specifically even though I said you. Again, you seem like you have a better handle on what's reasonable and what's not. Try as I might, I just can't see where this situation was reasonable given all the circumstances. I feel like it could have been handled better and then in the days after the fact they compounded the mistake but trying to shift blame and dodge accountability and those are two common traits of those they're sworn to protect us peons from.

I just think we need to have a massive come to Jesus on this entire topic and more defined lines of demarcation need to be agreed upon because after decades of 'Let's just throw this against a wall and see if it sticks' has progressed to the point where massive amounts of public distrust are taking place and the push back is going to cost lives on both sides of the table until that happens.

[BushMasterBoy]

and another one...

http://www.krdo.com/news/police-shoo...chase/33437470

[Bailey Guns]

I respect what you're saying, Jer, even if I disagree with a lot of it. And there's no doubt I should've shot that guy. But I was afraid to because of what I knew I'd have to go through.

But this is a two-way street. Personally, in almost 15 years behind a badge I NEVER saw anything other than minor misconduct by fellow officers. Nothing that wasn't handled with a conversation that usually went something like, "Don't ever put me in that situation again because I'm not gonna take a hit for you doing something wrong." And, frankly, at least in this area I don't see that "blue line" of cops willing to blindly defend a fellow cop that's done something egregious. I sense that it's more that way in the big departments or cities out east or like Detroit or Chicago.

Maybe the tendency to initially give cops the benefit of the doubt (at least for me, anyway) comes from having "been there, done that". I've been in situations more than I care to remember where I'd acted appropriately but it was my word against some dirt bag's word and it's hard to prove your case. I REALLY take offense to the ignorance that says it's as simple as getting a pair of running shoes and calling for backup. That obviously comes from someone who is clueless to how the real world actually works. Sometimes, you can't call for backup for any number of reasons...or you can, eventually, but it's miles away. In the story I told above I was never able to actually make that call. The guy I was fighting knocked my radio out of my hand, into the darkness. After 6.5 mins a little old man finally stopped and called for help for me. The volunteer firefighters were on scene long before another deputy.

Some may not believe this but, in my experience anyway, the worst enemy to a cop who's done wrong is other cops. Nobody wants to work with that guy because it's hard to get rid of the stink.

[Bailey Guns]

and another one...

http://www.krdo.com/news/police-shoo...chase/33437470

Just from that story it sounds as though the dead guy got exactly what he deserved.

[Hound]

Bailey, you misread my statement and should hopefully not take offense. I was talking to the OPs original statements and the recent incident where (an admitted dumbass) ran from a cop. When, after tazzing him, the cop shot a man in the back. I honestly hope you would not defend that cops actions. As grueling as it might have been he should have "gotten some running shoes". Every situation is different. Your situation is nowhere near the same. While I still believe it should be independently reviewed, if you had shot a person attacking you, I would be the first to stand beside you or any other cop. Same as this girl using the car as a weapon. I am sure nothing I say will change your mind but I am not anti-cop. I have just been able to see some bad cops in my time and want those bad cops held to justice, which never happened as with so many of these other stories coming out recently. It sounds like you were fortunate enough to somehow miss this in your years of service. That does not mean they are not out there. Jer seems to be pretty spot on IMHO.

[Jer]

and another one...

http://www.krdo.com/news/police-shoo...chase/33437470

Assuming the facts reported are accurate I see nothing wrong here.

I respect what you're saying, Jer, even if I disagree with a lot of it. And there's no doubt I should've shot that guy. But I was afraid to because of what I knew I'd have to go through.

But this is a two-way street. Personally, in almost 15 years behind a badge I NEVER saw anything other than minor misconduct by fellow officers. Nothing that wasn't handled with a conversation that usually went something like, "Don't ever put me in that situation again because I'm not gonna take a hit for you doing something wrong." And, frankly, at least in this area I don't see that "blue line" of cops willing to blindly defend a fellow cop that's done something egregious. I sense that it's more that way in the big departments or cities out east or like Detroit or Chicago.

Maybe the tendency to initially give cops the benefit of the doubt (at least for me, anyway) comes from having "been there, done that". I've been in situations more than I care to remember where I'd acted appropriately but it was my word against some dirt bag's word and it's hard to prove your case. I REALLY take offense to the ignorance that says it's as simple as getting a pair of running shoes and calling for backup. That obviously comes from someone who is clueless to how the real world actually works. Sometimes, you can't call for backup for any number of reasons...or you can, eventually, but it's miles away. In the story I told above I was never able to actually make that call. The guy I was fighting knocked my radio out of my hand, into the darkness. After 6.5 mins a little old man finally stopped and called for help for me. The volunteer firefighters were on scene long before another deputy.

Some may not believe this but, in my experience anyway, the worst enemy to a cop who's done wrong is other cops. Nobody wants to work with that guy because it's hard to get rid of the stink.

I meant more in the broad sense of supporting others more than actual cover ups type of things. More as in a story like the one in the other thread where they demolished a house & given the details presented it seems like there were far better ways of handling it yet they chose that method. Then, after the fact, nobody wants to accept responsibility because someone is going to have to foot the bill for a new house. That's even worse after the fact when they've had time to examine the entire picture. Common sense says that just ain't right. Meanwhile blue line brotherhood is across social media saying we don't know & we don't have the same info & they want to go home st the end of their shift & all sorts of hyperbole that makes you look like a real douche if you even attempt to disagree. That's the exact type of blind support of everyone with a badge that I'm talking about.

Normal citizens see others with a badge support them even though it's plainly wrong & it sort of gives a black eye to EVERYONE with a badge. Even more so than just the first guy (in that case entire agency) betrayed the trust of the people. Enough of that happens & I start to see where some people develop a distrust for everyone with a badge.

I hate that it's coming to thus but if a very small group of citizens want to turn this in an "us vs them" battle I think the absolute worst thing those in LE can do is take the bait & join hands w/those they know did wrong in defense of the brotherhood because that's going to hurt the cause more than anything. This is also the visual queue people are getting from what they deem over-militarization.

I'm getting into different topics here & feel like I drug that other conversation partially into this one so sorry for going s bit astray & sorry for not explaining myself very well.