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I'd say I've lived all over Europe, and the US. I'll take my chances with our current healthcare system rather than use theirs. As far as the cost goes you left out the part where they pay higher taxes to make up the difference.
The Hobo
Before It goes any farther though we should agree to disagree on this point. I am not trying to change anyones view. Mine is simply if I wnted socialized medicine I would move to a socialist country, or in Englands case a "parliamentary monarchy".
The Hobo
example of socialized medicine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw
ill pass.
I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind, and I'm sure that most people who read this will remain utterly convinced that the NHS is a horrendous system which rations healthcare and routinely leaves those it deems 'worthless' to die, but for most Britons the NHS is an enormous source of pride and I would imagine almost everyone who was born in the UK has at least one reason to be enormously grateful to it. So, just as you would feel compelled to step in if a group of people with very little experience of it were pontificating on the pros and cons of the Second Amendment, naturally I get defensive about the lies and disinformation I am exposed to daily as healthcare reform in this country is debated. Especially when the reforms that are being proposed here would lead to a system that's nothing like the NHS.Originally Posted by hobowh
And fyi, Britain is not a socialist country, not is it a "parliamentary monarchy." It's a parliamentary democracy. The queen is a titular figurehead with no real power who on balance costs the country nothing.
And on the subject of taxation, well, I'm not tax expert, but a brief look at tax rates over here (I leave that to our accountant and just let my wife sign the check at tax time) suggests that taxation is actually a little bit higher here than there. Of course it's hard to compare as the UK only has three tax brackets and not six, and then there's no state income tax over there, nor sales tax, and I believe that wages are comparatively higher there too, but on the whole, I don't really think that paying slightly higher taxes for healthcare of a comparable quality (sorry, but it is) that is available to EVERYONE without any cost is such a bad deal. I guess that makes me a socialist.
I'm not really trying to change anyone's mind, and I'm sure that most people who read this will remain utterly convinced that the NHS is a horrendous system which rations healthcare and routinely leaves those it deems 'worthless' to die, but for most Britons the NHS is an enormous source of pride and I would imagine almost everyone who was born in the UK has at least one reason to be enormously grateful to it. So, just as you would feel compelled to step in if a group of people with very little experience of it were pontificating on the pros and cons of the Second Amendment, naturally I get defensive about the lies and disinformation I am exposed to daily as healthcare reform in this country is debated. Especially when the reforms that are being proposed here would lead to a system that's nothing like the NHS.
And fyi, Britain is not a socialist country, not is it a "parliamentary monarchy." It's a parliamentary democracy. The queen is a titular figurehead with no real power who on balance costs the country nothing.
And on the subject of taxation, well, I'm not tax expert, but a brief look at tax rates over here (I leave that to our accountant and just let my wife sign the check at tax time
THE UK does not allow firearms to be owned like we do here in the states. we have freedoms. they have allotments given to them. that is the difference and we fought to get away from them for a reason.
+1
I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, but in case you weren't paying attention, I am actually FROM the UK. I didn't just live there for a while, I was born there, grew up there and only emigrated to the United States when I was 29, so if you would like to educate me about what freedoms we enjoy in the UK, and how we were all stripped of our firearms by a fascist government, go right ahead, and I will be more than happy to correct your misconceptions afterwards.
And yes, before anyone links to it, I have watched that video about gun laws in the UK, and yes, it's mostly nonsense and the huge 'pro-gun' rallies they show taking place in London are actually people protesting about the banning of hunting foxes with hounds and horses.
Just like comparing healthcare reform here with a completely socialized health service in the UK, comparing gun laws here and in the UK is like comparing apples and oranges.
I saw that you are from the UK.
YOU can go back since YOU seem to love it soo much.
better jump on the AMERICA band wagon because that is where you are at, NOT in the UK.
Like I said, start to enjoy the US for what it is, don't try to change it into the UK that YOU LEFT. If you want your UK sooo badly, then GO BACK TO IT.
Yeah, I noticed you just edited your post. The reply I was going to type to your original post was this: if you think that knowing more than you about the culture of the country that I was born in is so offensive, you're welcome to report me to USCIS and attempt to have me deported.
But to reply to what you have edited it to... yeah, I love the country that I was born in. If THAT is so offensive to you, I assume YOU don't love the country you were born in... am I correct?
Now, point me to ANYWHERE in my posts that I said I want to change America to be like the UK.
Don't assume you know anything about how I feel about living here simply from me correcting YOUR misconceptions about where I came from. For your information, and not that it's any of your business, about two weeks ago I mailed my N-400 (application for naturalization). On Wednesday I'm going to be fingerprinted for my FBI background check and going by the current waiting times for the Denver USCIS office I should be taking my citizenship oath in November.
I love living in this country, and I don't ever anticipate returning to the UK to live permanently. That doesn't mean that I am not proud of the country I grew up in, and it doesn't mean that I should let you trumpet the same old mistruths about it without any attempt to redress the balance.
Taking your points one by one, regarding the finding of a .22 round, what you have to understand is that hardly ANYONE in the UK owns a firearm, so finding live ammunition in the street is a bigger deal than it would be to you or me. It's not that everyone in the UK is a pansy who is terrified of guns, it's that there is practically zero gun culture over there.
I emigrated 6 years ago. My wife is from Miami, and when we married we decided to make our life there. How I came to end up in Colorado is another matter, involving hurricanes, insurance premiums and the housing crash. UK firearm freedom is nothing like here, because, as I said, there was never really a firearm culture there. The current restrictions on firearms were introduced after the Dunblane massacre as a result of overwhelming public pressure, and resulted in about 50,000 people (that's less than 1% of the population) losing their firearms licences (even before the restrictions, firearms were licenced, and anyone who wanted one had to show a good reason for wanting to own it and allow their security arrangements to be inspected by the police).
It's really almost impossible for an American to understand (and NO offence is intended here) the differences, because to you, the idea of having to apply for a licence and submit to a police inspection would be an abhorrent idea, but to an Briton who was interested in owning a firearm, that's how it has been for a hundred years.
You're right, many Britons who come here want to shoot, but it's not really from a desire to experience something we are cruelly denied back home, it's more out of curiosity. I suppose the best way to describe it would be if you went to Paris, you would climb the Eiffel Tower, but that doesn't mean you want an Eiffel Tower built in Denver.
As for your PS, once again, it's a difference in culture. If you lived in the UK, you simply wouldn't have .22 shells in your truck. You wouldn't bemoan your lack of freedom, simply because the idea of owning a gun wouldn't be on your radar.
As I said before, I don't have a problem with you not liking the idea of a single payer health service like the NHS. What does annoy me, and I would imagine would annoy you if the roles were reversed, is people making claims about a system that they have never experienced, and that are almost entirely based on lies.I also see no reason to try to make every country the same - or every State for that matter. You like the UK's systems - great. Don't be too annoyed if we don't. People always have the option of moving to the UK if they truly love it's system. I see absolutely no reason for those people to try to make us UK #2. Diversity is a good thing.
Last edited by jake; 08-14-2009 at 21:57.
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