Master Mechanics step inside-no crank no start 98 Civic (random)

[muddywings]

Car Mechanic gurus step inside and let me know what you think.

I have a 98 Honda Civic that I use as a commuter car. Bought the car as commuter when gas prices were touching high $3 a few years back so I would not have to drive the truck. I think I’m the second, maybe third owner. It wasn’t in prime condition but back then I was looking for anything that saved me on gas these were going fast and furious on Craigslist. I have had to do a few items like CV joint, leaky oil pan etc on it.

The Problem:
I get a random no start. I get lights, but no crank, no start. Just dead silence when I go to the start position except I do hear a faint humming noise from the passenger side dash. And it is very random.

Back in late July maybe, I jumped into the car in the morning, turned the key and got nothing. Bit perplexed, I took the key out, back in, and it started. (note: car sits in the garage when it’s home)
A week or two go by and same thing, but this time no amount of taking the key in/out, wiggling the key, turning the steering wheel helped. I jumped in my truck and went to work. I came home later in the day and it started fine.
Next day, this time instead of dead silence I got a horrible belt screeching noise. Jumped in the truck went to work. Came back, looked around under the hood at the start looking for possible loose wires on the starter, on the battery. Did not attempt a restart. (this was the only time I had a belt screeching noise)
I didn’t do a lot of investigating as I had to leave for a few days. My father-in-law came over while I was gone to see what he could see. Besides it being a bit flooded (my fault) it started fine.
Drive it a few weeks, no issues then when trying to leave work one day around 4 I get a no start. Dead silence (with the faint hum). Sit there perplexed for a bit try the key again and it starts up.
Next day it starts in the morning but again a no start again in the afternoon. (I was a parked downhill it a tough spot so I didn’t push it out). Got a ride home, drove the truck the next day. I tried it first thing in the morning and it started fine. (Drove the civic home and had a family member drive me back to work)
Since then, I get the same intermittent no start. Sometimes it will start a few seconds later on a second try, sometimes nothing. But now I park at work where I can just release the break and coast down a hill and bump start it. (makes for a much longer walk from the parking area to my office) (also, in case you wanted to know, yes you can bump start a car going in reverse too)
I bring it to a "honda guy" I know who works out of his own garage. (Full lift and everything) But of course it starts fine. I thinks it could be the key cylinder maybe switch and has felt enough bad ones that he messes with it for bit but says it still feels solid and with it starting fine it's hard to diagnosis. (He doesn't charge me anything for the quick look)
Last time I had a serious no start where nothing helped, I drove it to O’Reilly after I bumped it. Once at O’Reilly, it started fine. But they tested the battery, alternator, and starter with one of their fancy machines-all check strong with no issues. I even showed the techs there a short phone video of the symptoms and they were perplexed. One tech had me call his ‘master mechanic’ buddy. I described everything above and he had me look at ignition relay under the hood (which was on the passenger side). He asked if the prongs were blued as if they were arching. Nope, looked perfectly fine. He thought for sure that would be it. He recommended since those relays are only $8 to replace it and give it a shot. Replaced with a new relay. Still have the problem.
So, last Friday I took a look at two things-
I took apart the Main relay. Now, from my research, a main relay failure should give you a crank but no start (lack of fuel). When the main relay was unplugged that is exactly what I got. After removing the circuit board from the box housing the board looked fine except one solder point was rather brown. Picture:


I also pulled the steering column off and disconnected the starter switch from the key cylinder. The key cylinder prong looked find and the plastic on the starter switch looked find (no cracking). The solder points the start switch also looked fine. Pictures:






Now this is a commuter car that is supposed to save me money so I really don’t want to start tossing money at it left and right to make it work. My main theory is that this is electrical and when it’s warm out I have some connection with a week solder point and it doesn’t make the connection initially or not at all. The main relay doesn’t make a ton of sense based on my symptoms vs a bad main relay problem but the brown on the circuit board has me pondering—also that hum is from that area. My second though is that the lead inside of the starter switch that makes the connection could be bad which is why I get lights but nothing else (but that hum from the passenger side/main relay area has me confused).

So, master mechanics of the world wide web, any ideas?

[Irving]

Without reading the thread. Try the main relay.

[muddywings]

Without reading the thread. Try the main relay.

Didn't replace it yet.
Took it out, and got classic main relay failure--crank but no start. My problem: I get no crank no start at random times.
Circuit board picture above is of the main relay.

[fullmann]

Check your battery connection, make sure it's tight and clean. There may be a small bridge in there that allows lights and what not to work, but the current draw of the starter is too much.

When you jump the car, it may be crimping the battery terminal tight again, but it loosens over the next couple days driving.

If if I remember right, the battery clamp on those is pretty thin and prone to stretching, making it loose no matter how much you wrench it down

[muddywings]

Check your battery connection, make sure it's tight and clean. There may be a small bridge in there that allows lights and what not to work, but the current draw of the starter is too much.

When you jump the car, it may be crimping the battery terminal tight again, but it loosens over the next couple days driving.

If if I remember right, the battery clamp on those is pretty thin and prone to stretching, making it loose no matter how much you wrench it down

Never had to jump it. Always bumped started it via a push (or a simple roll down a hill).
Battery connections are solid. Even the techs at O'Reilly didn't see any issues there and their battery tester showed no issues with batter, alternator or starter.

[Graves]

Unless there is something corroded or broken, you can't tell what a circuit is doing just by looking at it. Get a meter and see what you're getting at the starter and go from there.

Not sure what they did for you at the parts store, but is there any to see what kind of test they ran and what they got for readings?

O'Reilly has "techs"?

[muddywings]

Unless there is something corroded or broken, you can't tell what a circuit is doing just by looking at it. Get a meter and see what you're getting at the starter and go from there.

Not sure what they did for you at the parts store, but is there any to see what kind of test they ran and what they got for readings?

O'Reilly has "techs"?

The problem has been the randomness of the issue. In the past 3-4 months it has only happened a handful of times. Then even without moving the car the problem goes away.
ie: problem in the morning in my garage but gone in the afternoon. or, problem when trying to leave work but after I bump it and get home or to a store/shop the problem doesn't duplicate. That is what my 'honda guy' had a problem with. They can't test or trouble shoot for a problem that isn't currently happening. I might be able to find a connect that has a lot of resistance but I don't have the resources of knowledge to test to that level.
For me, the car is unreliable for anything other than driving to/from work.

The test at O'Reilly was with some pretty big machine (kinda like a super OBDII reader) but it was hooked to the battery. beyond that, I don't know what it was.

[sniper7]

Possibly in the ignition coil/distributor where the timing may be off? When I rebuilt my Tahoe engine it would do this because the timing was off. Wouldn't start, then the computer would take over and bypass something and it would start fine on the next try or two. Got it timed right and no problems.


when was the last time it had a tune up with new belts, plugs wires etc? Might be worth it to get it all taken care of at once or do it yourself. You can get kits on eBay very cheap. All the belts, gaskets, water pump, plugs wires, distributor fuel filter air filter etc for I think around $200-250

[Wulf202]

Neutral switch. Starter solenoid?

[Irving]

Hondas of that generation were known for random hot start issues like you are describing that are difficult to pin down. Replacing the main relay was always the solution. I think people were able to get the car to start in a pinch by taping on the relay. Next time it happens give that a try and see if it works.