Taco vs Frontier: Your Thoughts, Please

[TFOGGER]

Not to side track the thread, but my wife's 95 Rodeo is starting to show it's age, so we started shopping for a replacement. The criteria were (we thought) fairly straight forward: no more than 6 years old (flexible subject to mileage and condition), off road capable, under $20k, and manual transmission. The last one proved to be a total kicker. Basically, our choices are 8 year old FJ Cruisers (which she can't see out of), Wrangle Unlimiteds which are pushing the upper end of the budget, and Xterras. We're negotiating on a 2012 Xterra right now, but I'm blown away that it's so frickin hard to find something with a manual transmission. I've been out of the automotive aftermarket for a while, but back when, auto transmissions simply did not have the durability and reliability for four wheeling without major upgrades to clutches and cooling. Has that really changed?

[Martinjmpr]

Not to side track the thread, but my wife's 95 Rodeo is starting to show it's age, so we started shopping for a replacement. The criteria were (we thought) fairly straight forward: no more than 6 years old (flexible subject to mileage and condition), off road capable, under $20k, and manual transmission. The last one proved to be a total kicker. Basically, our choices are 8 year old FJ Cruisers (which she can't see out of), Wrangle Unlimiteds which are pushing the upper end of the budget, and Xterras. We're negotiating on a 2012 Xterra right now, but I'm blown away that it's so frickin hard to find something with a manual transmission. I've been out of the automotive aftermarket for a while, but back when, auto transmissions simply did not have the durability and reliability for four wheeling without major upgrades to clutches and cooling. Has that really changed?

Pretty sure that changed a long time ago. Auto's are now generally preferred for off road use, especially the big rock crawling buggies. Transmission coolers are cheap and modern electronic auto transmissions are as reliable as anything else made today (which is pretty darn reliable.)

I'm a stick shift guy too (my DD 2wd Mazda pickup is a manual and so is my wife's YJ) but we're all going to have to accept that the day of the MT will soon be over.

Toyota dropped the MT from the 4runner way back in 2001, the FJC and Xterra have been dropped from their respective lineups. Full size 1/2 ton trucks haven't had MT's for a decade or so and for SUVs it's even worse - I think the last Suburban to have a manual was the old "square" body style that ended in 1991. Expedition, Tahoe, Sequoia, R51 Pathfinder (the 2005 - 2011 models) and Armada have never been sold in the US with manual transmissions.

The only way to get a 4x4 with a stick shift nowadays is either to go with a Jeep Wrangler or a Tacoma/Frontier (even the new Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon is automatic only.) I suppose there's a slight possibility that IF Ford reintroduces the Ranger to the US market (there's been scuttlebutt about that) it might have a manual but I wouldn't bet on the truck even showing up in US markets - it would take sales away from the F150 and with cheap gas there's no incentive to build any more mid sized or compact trucks.

The only exception to the above I can think of is 3/4 - 1 ton and up 4x4 trucks from Ford and Dodge might be available with MTs. I don't really know.

EDITED TO ADD: I just remembered there were some models of the Jeep Liberty that were sold with MTs (6 speed I think.) I don't know how rare they are though, but they are a true body-on-frame SUV with a low range T-case. The first generation "Round eye" Libertys were a little - how can I say this? - "Girly looking" but the later ones looked OK. Not sure why Jeep dropped the Liberty, I always thought it was kind of a nice sized compact SUV. A few years back the wife and I rented a 2wd Dodge Nitro (same thing as the Liberty) and that thing was a tank. Solid as a rock.

Now they've replaced it with that "Cherokee" AWD crossover. Just what we needed, another crossover.

[TFOGGER]

Yeah, her words were "I don't want a soccer mom SUV." We don't go off road more than maybe a half dozen times a year, but when we do, low range and skid plates are pretty useful. The "crossovers" all lack basic necessities, like ground clearance and low range. Currently, the motor home is the only thing we own with an auto trans, but maybe I can convince her...we'll see how it goes with the Xterra negotiations. They're currently about 2 grand more than we're willing to pay, but it has a 6 speed (Pro 4X package with the locking rear diff).

[hurley842002]

Yeah, her words were "I don't want a soccer mom SUV." We don't go off road more than maybe a half dozen times a year, but when we do, low range and skid plates are pretty useful. The "crossovers" all lack basic necessities, like ground clearance and low range. Currently, the motor home is the only thing we own with an auto trans, but maybe I can convince her...we'll see how it goes with the Xterra negotiations. They're currently about 2 grand more than we're willing to pay, but it has a 6 speed (Pro 4X package with the locking rear diff).

Can't beat 6 speed and Pro 4X.

[ZERO THEORY]

Pretty sure that changed a long time ago. Auto's are now generally preferred for off road use, especially the big rock crawling buggies. Transmission coolers are cheap and modern electronic auto transmissions are as reliable as anything else made today (which is pretty darn reliable.)

I'm a stick shift guy too (my DD 2wd Mazda pickup is a manual and so is my wife's YJ) but we're all going to have to accept that the day of the MT will soon be over.

Toyota dropped the MT from the 4runner way back in 2001, the FJC and Xterra have been dropped from their respective lineups. Full size 1/2 ton trucks haven't had MT's for a decade or so and for SUVs it's even worse - I think the last Suburban to have a manual was the old "square" body style that ended in 1991. Expedition, Tahoe, Sequoia, R51 Pathfinder (the 2005 - 2011 models) and Armada have never been sold in the US with manual transmissions.

The only way to get a 4x4 with a stick shift nowadays is either to go with a Jeep Wrangler or a Tacoma/Frontier (even the new Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon is automatic only.) I suppose there's a slight possibility that IF Ford reintroduces the Ranger to the US market (there's been scuttlebutt about that) it might have a manual but I wouldn't bet on the truck even showing up in US markets - it would take sales away from the F150 and with cheap gas there's no incentive to build any more mid sized or compact trucks.

The only exception to the above I can think of is 3/4 - 1 ton and up 4x4 trucks from Ford and Dodge might be available with MTs. I don't really know.

EDITED TO ADD: I just remembered there were some models of the Jeep Liberty that were sold with MTs (6 speed I think.) I don't know how rare they are though, but they are a true body-on-frame SUV with a low range T-case. The first generation "Round eye" Libertys were a little - how can I say this? - "Girly looking" but the later ones looked OK. Not sure why Jeep dropped the Liberty, I always thought it was kind of a nice sized compact SUV. A few years back the wife and I rented a 2wd Dodge Nitro (same thing as the Liberty) and that thing was a tank. Solid as a rock.

Now they've replaced it with that "Cherokee" AWD crossover. Just what we needed, another crossover.

Chrysler are really the only ones still giving the manual its due. The Ram 3/4 and 1 ton trucks have awesome manuals, and the JKs still have them. Other than that, there aren't a lot of 4x4 manual options left.

EDIT: And the Tacos/Frontiers as obviously mentioned ITT. Although even Toyota has cut the manual to only being a Sport or Off Road package option. The Limited config (most expensive at $34K+) won't even let you get one.

[Martinjmpr]

Although even Toyota has cut the manual to only being a Sport or Off Road package option. The Limited config (most expensive at $34K+) won't even let you get one.

From what I've read on the truck and 4x4 boards I'm on, the 6 speed manual in the Tacoma is crap. Well, not necessarily the transmission itself, but the transmission and gearing as it comes from the factory is not well liked. In fact, I think the EPA estimated MPG for the auto is higher than for the MT. Most people who try both the 6m and the 5a in the Tacoma end up liking the slushbox a lot more.

The 4 cyl/5 speed is a different matter, but I believe that's only available in the stripped down packages with either a regular cab or an extended cab - AFAIK no double cabs are available in that configuration (and the DC is the most popular of the Tacomas.)