Thinking I may break down and finally get something in 9mm

[GunTroll]

We don't really need to hash out the whole caliber vs other caliber thing though do we?

Bigger is better, yes. But that doesn't mean that not bigger is worthless.

I'm having the same conversation with someone on another board about motorcycles. Apparently, if your bike gets beat by another bike, your bike is worthless and you should sell it. I never knew that.

Man you are so dumb if you didn't know that. Loser with a loser bike!

[Irving]

Man you are so dumb if you didn't know that. Loser with a loser bike!

I feel like one. I also didn't know that it is common practice to trade in your bike for the model that beat you every time you lose. I thought guns were an expensive hobby!

[GunTroll]

What you doing racing? Aren't you in the insurance/risk business????

[Irving]

I don't even have a motorcycle!

I did drag race for two seasons though.

[SA Friday]

Military issued 9mm for war zones are NOT self defense ammo. They are 124gr FMJ ammo traveling at around 1200fps and have little to no secondary would channel as they rarely expand. The same weight and velocity on a decent hollow point in the same situation will expand and cause much more primary and secondary wound damage. The Helsinki Accords dictates what is and is not humane ammo for use in war. We, the US Military follow the Helsinki Accords in our ammo selection and issue. Any altered or non-issued ammo used in war time is a violation of the Law of Armed Conflict, and punishable under the UCMJ. So, not a good arguement against 9mm as defense ammo. It's comparing apples and oranges.

A better arguement would be the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde ballistic tests where they concluded that there were two major factors in neutralizing a target; larget diameter bullet (at least .45 diameter) and relentless practice by the shooter to maximize accuracy. The tests were ordered after numerous complaints of their current issued handgun (a 38 caliber revolver cartridge with 9mm Luger equilivant power) being ineffectual during combat.

100+ years of bullet design has reduced the difference through expanding bullets, and additional power through stronger pistols and hotter rounds resulting in more affectual defensive rounds in smaller calibers. But, the same advancements have also made larger calibers even more affectual also.

I've been to multiple autopsies in my 11 years as a Federal Agent. A head shot is a head shot and terminal at every shooting I've worked. Ironically, all three head shot's I've been to were 9mm's and one was with an issued M9 with issed ball ammo. These were autopsies, they were terminal shots. Thorasic cavity shots are an entirely different matter. 45 ACP hollow points are just fricken brutal. Interviewed many victims shot with lesser diameter bullets. Ultimately, it's the location of the shot that counts, then the caliber selection second. Bigger is better in stopping an assailiant, but any gun is better than harsh language. Shoot what you can shoot accurately. If you have to shoot someone, shoot them till you are out of ammo or the threat is neutralized.

Handguns, but their very design, are underpowered and not meant to kill a full sized human in one shot. That's what a rifle is for. The difference is hydrostatic shock from the bullet. Handguns ultimately rely on esanguination to neutralize the target. There are very few handgun calibers that get to a level of Ke causing hydrostatic shock, and none that are easily concealed. Is that a .500 S&W under your jacket or do you have a conjoined twin under there?

I have a 14 year old step-daughter that shoot USPSA competitons with me in the summer. She shoots a Glock 17 9mm, but has shot 1911's in 45 ACP with no problems. The reason she could shoot the 45 ACP was she was trained in the correct shooting basics first. In order to do that, it meant a lighter recoiling caliber. Accepting an explosion in front of your face and not reacting is hard to learn. Compound that with excessive recoil and you have a very hard road ahead of you. Start small, teach them right, then move them to a larger caliber when they are ready.

Do NOT get a Ruger P89! You will have hell teaching a new shooter trigger control with that gun. There is no break and there is no reset. The SR9 is a much better choice over the P series pistols for someone to learn with. Even better is a S&W M&P as the trigger even at it's worst has a discernable break and reset, and the grip can be adjusted to even the smallest teen-aged hands.

Yep, I had some time on my hands today.

[SA Friday]

OK, is it just me or does it feel weird kind of (but not completely or I would be totally weirded out) agreeing with GunTroll?

[Jer]

Nope.... they both have the potential to kill. But if your primary use is to stop the bad guy then you want to do so as fast a possible. IE one shot verses 3, 5 or the clip.

Between saying 9mm will bounce off of bone (unless thrown by hand) and your improper use of the term 'clip' I think I'm done listening to your opinion in this debate.

[DOC]

I have never had a problem with the 9mm. Its a bigger bullet than any of my rifle rounds and it has a lot advantages like you can carry more in a magazine. When you are just plinking with it most of the time it works out pretty well. I agree with with SA Friday that it doesn't really matter if you get shot in the head with a .45 or 9mm your going to have a bad day. So it makes sense to at least aim for the head no matter what you got. While treaties and politicians have banned what kind of bullets you can and can't use against an enemy they haven't banned where you can shoot them for effect. Shoot em in the head and save yourself.

[SA Friday]

I have never had a problem with the 9mm. Its a bigger bullet than any of my rifle rounds and it has a lot advantages like you can carry more in a magazine. When you are just plinking with it most of the time it works out pretty well. I agree with with SA Friday that it doesn't really matter if you get shot in the head with a .45 or 9mm your going to have a bad day. So it makes sense to at least aim for the head no matter what you got. While treaties and politicians have banned what kind of bullets you can and can't use against an enemy they haven't banned where you can shoot them for effect. Shoot em in the head and save yourself.

I would not necessarily support the philosophy of taking the head shot initially. Get lead in target, take the biggest target given. This is the chest shot if given initially. Head and pelvis are failure-to-neutralize targets, secondary targets. Training and practice will show you which caliber will allow you take these shots accurately.

[RRD3]

Between saying 9mm will bounce off of bone (unless thrown by hand) and your improper use of the term 'clip' I think I'm done listening to your opinion in this debate.

I'm going by Coroner reports out of L.A. The busiest Coroners office in the country. This is THEIR report about autopsies in their office.

There is a "higher" potential for a 9mm or .32 to bounce of bone.

I did NOT say or did the report say that ALL 9mm ALL of the time would do so.