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  1. #1
    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    Default The Untold History of School

    This interview is about the history of school starting all the way back to the Prussians in the 1800's. This touches on many topics from conspiracy theory to the general societal feelings about home schooling. The interviewer is Joshua Sheets from RadicalPersonalFinance.com. The interviewee is Brett Veinotte, who is the founder of The School Sucks project (http://schoolsucksproject.com/). These guys are from very different backgrounds and the interview is long, in-depth, and touches on many, many topics that I think a lot of members on here have talked about in other threads. The interview is nearly three hours long and broken up into two podcasts. I know we all have little time and short attention spans now a days, but if you've got a long drive or a lot of laundry to do or something. This is an interesting listen and if you've ever found yourself thinking that the school system is broken, then this will be relevant to your interests.

    Part 1: https://radicalpersonalfinance.com/t...oject-rpf0089/

    Part 2: https://radicalpersonalfinance.com/t...oject-rpf0090/

    These guys come from two different backgrounds and have a great conversation about school in general and all the dumb things about school that has built into the general idea from the very beginning.
    "There are no finger prints under water."

  2. #2
    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    At the end of part 2 Joshua Sheets reads an essay called "The Story of Two Buses," by Dr. Gary North. The essay has no overlapping information from the interview, but is in the same train of thought.

    The essay can be found here: http://americanvision.org/6523/the-story-of-two-buses/

    Here it is in full.

    Picture this. You’re driving down the highway with your nine-year-old son. You’re in the middle lane. On your right, one behind the other, are two buses. The bus in front is painted white. The bus behind is painted yellow. The bus in front has its windows painted over. The bus behind does not.

    Your son asks you a question. “What are those two buses, Daddy?” You tell him that they are two very different kinds of buses. ” How are the different?” he asks. You explain that on the first bus are prisoners who are being taken to jail. On the second bus are students who are being taken to school. “But how is that different?” your son asks. That’s what I’m asking, too.

    You tell your son that the men on the first bus are required to get on that bus. Then your son asks you if the students on the yellow bus have a choice in the matter. You think about it. Neither group has any choice in the matter. Somebody tells the members of both groups that they must get on that bus and stay on that bus until the bus comes to it’s destination.

    Your son says he doesn’t understand. So, you try to make it clear to him. You tell him that the people on the white bus have committed crimes. They are bad people. They are being taken to jail. The people on the yellow bus are good people. They are being taken to school. Your son asks: “Why do they make the good people go on the bus?” That’s what I’m asking, too.

    Remember, you’re talking to a nine-year-old. Nine-year-olds are not very sophisticated. They need clear answers. So, you had better be prepared to provide clear answers.

    You tell your son that the good people on the yellow bus are being taken to school for their own good. Your son asks if the people on the white bus are being taken to jail, but not for their own good. No, you tell him. They are being taken to jail for their own good, too. Your son asks, “Then what the difference?”

    The difference, you explain to your son, is that the people on the white bus are very bad and society intends to make them better. Your son asks: “Is society taking the people on the yellow bus to school in order to make them worse?” No, you tell him. Society is taking them to school in order to make them better people, too. “Then what’s the difference?”

    The difference, you hope to explain, is that people on the white bus are dangerous people. In order to make society safer, society puts them in jail. The people on the yellow bus are not dangerous. “Then why are they forced to go to a place where they don’t want to go?” your son asks. “Because it’s good for them,” you answer. “But isn’t that why the people on the white bus are being taken to jail?” he asks.

    You are getting frustrated. You tell your son that they’re required to get on the bus because when they are young they don’t know that it is a good thing for them to go to school. They don’t want to go to school. But they’re supposed to go to school. Your son replies that this sounds just like the people on the white bus. But they’re supposed to go to jail, you tell him. It’s for their own good. They’re going to be better people if they go to jail.

    Isn’t that right? Isn’t the whole idea of sending people to jail is to rehabilitate them? Aren’t they supposed to become better people in jail? I mean, if they aren’t going to become better people, why not just sell them into slavery and use the money to pay restitution to their victims? Why build jails? Why paint buses white?

    You tell your son that the bad people have to go to jail in order to keep them off the streets. The problem is, this is one of the reasons why society requires students to go to school. People want to keep the kids off the streets. They want to make certain that somebody in authority is in a position to tell the children what to do. They don’t trust the children to make their own decisions. They also don’t trust the criminals to make their own decisions.

    This is more complicated than you thought, but you keep trying. You explain to your son that bad people must be kept from doing more bad things. Your son asks: “What are the bad things that kids do?” The light comes on. You tell your son that the children are dangerous to themselves, but the prisoners are dangerous to everybody else. The children may hurt themselves, but the prisoners may hurt other people. But your son wants to know why it is that the children must be taken to school in order to keep them from hurting themselves, when they can stay home and not hurt themselves.

    You tell your son that it’s because people are not able to stay home with their children. Your son wants to know why not. You explain that both parents have to work to make enough money to live a good life. This means that somebody has to take care of their children. Your son wants to know why parents don’t hire somebody to come into their home and take care of the children. Why don’t they hire a teacher to take care of them? You explain that it is cheaper to hire one teacher to look after lots of students. Your son wants to know why it’s cheaper to send children to school when it costs money to build schools, buy buses, hire drivers and pay for fuel.

    This is a smart kid.

    You explain that the people who have children force people who do not have children to pay for the schools. Your son asks if this is the same thing as stealing. “Isn’t that what the people on the white bus did?” No, you explain, it’s not stealing. Your son asks, “How is it different?” Now you have a problem. You have to explain the difference between taking money from someone to benefit yourself as a private citizen, which is what a criminal does, and taking money from someone to benefit yourself as a voter. This is not so easy to explain.

    You explain to your son that when you vote to take money away from someone so that you can educate your child, this is different from sticking a gun in somebody’s stomach and telling him that he has to turn his money over to you. Your son then asks if it would be all right to stick a gun in somebody’s stomach if you intended to use the money to educate your child. No, you explain, it’s not the same. When you tell someone that he has to educate your child in a school run by the government, it’s legal. When you tell somebody that he has to educate your child in a private school, where parents pay directly to hire teachers, it’s illegal.

    Your son then asks you if it’s all right to take money from other people just so long as you hand over to the government the money to do the things that you want the government to do. You explain that this is correct. “But what if other people don’t think that the government ought to be doing these things?” You explain that people don’t have the right to tell the government not to do these things unless they can get more than half of the voters to tell the government to stop doing them. You son sees the logic of this. He asks you: “Are the people in the white bus being taken to jail because there were not enough of them to win the election?” You know this can’t be right, but it’s hard to say why it’s wrong.

    Here is where you are so far. Society makes the prisoners go to jail. It sees the prisoners as dangerous. It wants to teach them to obey. Society makes children go to school. It sees these children as dangerous to themselves. It wants to teach them to obey. If it can teach both groups how to obey, society expects the world to improve. Society therefore uses tax money to pay for the operation of jails and schools. This includes paying for buses. But there is a difference. Prison buses are white. School buses are yellow.

    There must be more to it than this.

    So, you keep trying. Schools are run by the government to teach children how to make a living. Jails are run by the government to teach people how to stop stealing. Here is a major difference. “Do they teach prisoners how to make a good living?” your son asks. No, you tell him. The prison teaches them to obey. He asks: “Then why will they stop stealing when they get out of prison, if they don’t know how to make a good living?” Because, you explain, they will be afraid to do bad things any more. Your son asks if people in prison learn how to do bad things in prison. You admit that they do. “So,” he asks, “we send people to prison and school so that they will learn how to make a good living? Only the difference is that the government pays for a place where bad people teach other bad people how to steal without getting caught, but in school, the government pays good people to teach children how to be good citizens and vote. So, the bad people learn how to to steal from the good people without voting, and the good people learn how to steal from each other by voting. Is that how it works?”

    That’s how it works. Both systems use buses to take the students to school. But the colors are different.

    In prison, prisoners sell illegal drugs. Students do the same in school. In prison the food is terrible. It’s not very good in school – possibly prepared by the same food service company. In prison, there are constant inspections. Guards keep taking roll to make sure everyone is present and accounted for. Teachers do the same in school. In prison, you aren’t allowed to leave without permission. The same is true in school. In prison, bullies run the show. In school, they do, too. But there is a difference. Prison buses are white. School buses are yellow.

    This is too extreme. The systems are different. Criminals are convicted in a court of law before they are sent to jail. Students, in contrast, are innocent. Some prisoners can get parole. The average term in prison for murder is under ten years. Students are put into the school system for twelve years. There is no parole.

    Be thankful if you are not in one of those buses, either white or yellow.
    "There are no finger prints under water."

  3. #3
    Ammosexual GilpinGuy's Avatar
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    I'll be checking these out for sure. Thanks for the links.

    I've heard/read that we've used the same Prussian model - for 200 years. Seems like we could have improved on things a little. With online learning, schools will have some serious competition in the years to come.

    On another note, I was talking to a rather left leaning acquaintance the other day who told me that he though $15k a year per high school kid was a good deal for taxpayers. These people really believe this. Amazing .

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    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    Check in with me after the interview and after you read that essay. Both of your comments are addressed. I imagine you'll come back more frustrated than ever.
    "There are no finger prints under water."

  5. #5
    MODFATHER cstone's Avatar
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    We home schooled our two oldest and the youngest is spending most of her time at the Vo-Tech learning how to weld and diesel mechanic stuff. Thank goodness she finishes this year. IMO public schools are one of the worst uses of tax payer money in our country. Public school is the last place in anyone's life where they will be; segregated by age, talked at for 6 hours a day for half of a year, tested numerous times in ways that have little if anything to do with what anyone actually does in the work world, and taught by government employees who are governed by a union that is in the tank for the progressive left.

    Do you ever read anything from fee.org? Some interesting and thought provoking articles related to financial education.
    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.

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    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    I'll add fee.org to my list. Thanks for the tip.
    "There are no finger prints under water."

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    Carries A Danged Big Stick buffalobo's Avatar
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    They have improved on it, the Prussian model works better than the developers ever dreamed.

    The Prussian model is not about learning or education, it is about programming.

    Look forward to checking out interview/discussion.
    If you're unarmed, you are a victim


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    Splays for the Bidet CS1983's Avatar
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    Stu, you might be interested in John Gatto's writings. My wife has read (I think) all of his books. We will be homeschooling once our little guy is old enough, and then his little brother and whomever else comes along.

    I have a buddy who pulled his 15 year old son out of public school last year. He immediately set about on an ad hoc Classical education system, based largely on the Great Books concept + heavy math and science (buddy has an EE degree). His son went from being retar.. err.. "educated", to surpassing the national average for high school seniors on the SAT. He's about to get a GED and move on to college at 16 when his birthday comes up in a few months, likely majoring in either Engineering or IT. He would have him do things like watch a Netflix documentary on the Atom bomb to get him interested, THEN he would touch on the science behind it. Lib arts would be things like "Read this chapter from Aristotle's Politics and then we're gonna have a discussion on the topics in the chapter," which would lead to current events, etc. He just bought a vintage piano which needs to be restored. I imagine that will touch on physics (vibrations, etc.), carpentry, and maybe history or something.

    I look forward to listening to the interview.
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  9. #9
    QUITTER Irving's Avatar
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    His book about The Untold History of Schooling is what this interview, and the entire website of Schoolsucksproject, is based upon. I've not read any of his stuff though. They refer to him and his book many times in the interview.
    "There are no finger prints under water."

  10. #10
    BANNED....or not? Skip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irving View Post
    At the end of part 2 Joshua Sheets reads an essay called "The Story of Two Buses," by Dr. Gary North. The essay has no overlapping information from the interview, but is in the same train of thought.

    The essay can be found here: http://americanvision.org/6523/the-story-of-two-buses/

    Here it is in full.
    Epic! Thanks for posting that, I'll try and check out the site and interviews as the day goes on and I have breaks.

    I think a lot of us have come to know, or at least sensed, public school isn't about educating humans to increase their personal potential in life but rather "socialize" or train kids to become good citizens. In the past that meant one thing but it seems lately it means removing all ability to think freely/critically about a thing and come to an honest conclusion rather than a pre-conceived group-think PC conclusion. Marking "D" on a ballot is more important than reading, balancing a checkbook, changing a tire, or any other basic task lost on most (but not all) youth.

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