March for Our Lives

[Fmedges]

Just out of curiosity what do you see as divisiveness? What could gun owners do to be less divisive on a topic where, as of yesterday, they now admit they want all of 2A gone? It seems like an absolute position that implies much future badness.


And in all honesty, the reasonable things aren't even on the table anymore for us to give, they are being given up willingly (e.g. FL BGCs, age limits, etc...). Look at CO and tell us what we could do to put the other side at ease? I don't know about MN, but here they won't let us protect the schools! They ignore Denver's casual violence, for now. We have BGCs, we have mag limits. We could give age limits on ARs but it will be ineffective and then we'll be talking AWB.


If you've had conversations with the other side you've probably experienced some of what I have. You remain calm and polite, acknowledge the concern and agree that kids getting murdered is unacceptable, cite facts/statistics, talk about why the US has 2A, and get called a child murderer once the talking points fail. Those talking points they've been given are designed to shut is us down which is why they get so angry when they fail. They believe them like a religion (most can't define an "assault weapon" but talk about them like nuclear weapons and are shocked when I explain the concept of semi-auto [wood vs synthetic, how common they are]). This was never a conversation and the people funding it are paying for an outcome.


I see it as a soft civil war and the differences are irreconcilable. Someone has to lose and someone has to win. If we walk away, we lose. And it's not just guns, it's coming to a head on guns because so many understand that is the red line. As gun owners that puts us in the middle of it all which is really shitty! If it were 1A it would be Christians and Libertarians (people in UK being arrested for speech right now btw). Imagine how divisive that will be when folks are told what they are/are not allowed to believe! Would it be appropriate to back down and say those on the side of freedom are being divisive because they won't bend their knee?


I could also give you all the examples of what the Left has said they would like to do to me and my family. I could show all the names I've been called individually and as a gun owner. I'm sorry gun owners have embarrassed you, but maybe you should look at the cost of losing. Throw in AntiFa and the global interest against Trump and I'm surprised at shots haven't been fired at this point.


This isn't getting healed and it isn't going away.


If it were just my hobby, I'd give it to them like a participation trophy. It's not a hobby.

What could gun owners do to be less divisive
Live in reality. Maybe it's just the fact that stupid people make more noise, but the whole "I can't wait until they kick down my door because then it's go time." That mentality is stupid at best. Gun owners as a group could never pull off the kind of measly rally that just happened in DC. All of these gun groups are their own worst enemy. They spend more time collecting money and fighting between themselves for membership than they do anything else. These groups are supposed to what? Escape the authorities where every they live and meet up in the woods to use their guerilla tactics to cripple the government and restore the Constitution? Give me a break. To accomplish this everyone would need to be self-less in their sacrifice. What do we see today? "We'll it's not my state so that sucks." "Only libs live in Commifornia". The exact opposite. The rights have already been infringed so when exactly is it time? "When it's time you'll know." All dumb shit that is said.

The reality of it is that we live in a society in which people are told every opinion (if you agree with me) matters. Feelings matter more than logic and security trumps freedom and privacy. Slowly most people are buying into it. Does it surprise you that the reasoning for the laws they want are grounded in feelings? Most people have internet accounts to share their actions or opinions throughout the day. I'm am not a fan of this, but then again who gives a shit other than me about my opinion? Our society clearly likes it.

In my opinion the judicial system, congress, the press and the military leadership are corrupt or at best not representing the "citizens" of this country. The patriot act destroy's the bill of rights and that's just the start, but what's the solution? At what point are you advocating for a way of life that no longer exists and the masses don't want it to exist? I don't believe that is today, but how many years? When I was younger I had to learn my lesson in doing and maybe the best way to learn is by hardship. I don't believe the government is hell bent on imprisoning and murdering it's citizens. After all who would pay them taxes?

You sound like you are doing great work, but the cards are stacked against all of us. Nobody cares about your logic so honestly it's just a waste of time. Our society as a whole has to come to the decision that it doesn't want the government to run out of control, but as it sits today it's not going that way.

[Gman]

In my opinion the judicial system, congress, the press and the military leadership are corrupt or at best not representing the "citizens" of this country.

Every thing that the left say they needed to be safe was in place before the Parkland shooting. "See something, say something." Background checks. Yet, the government at all levels in Florida completely short-circuited the system or failed to act entirely.

"We need more government restrictions!"

...and we're being divisive by pointing out that the government is totally ineffective at providing the people safety. Murder is illegal, yet if you stack on a bunch of new laws, they'll obey them? Laws are only applicable to those people that police themselves.

"We need a ban on high-capacity magazines!" None of which were used in Parkland or in the worst school shooting in history, Virginia Tech. "We need to ban "assault weapons"!" which are defined by cosmetics. Virginia Tech shooting involved 2 handguns.

How do you rationalize that an adult between the ages of 18-20 has their right to self-preservation protected by the 2nd Amendment, but no ability to purchase the tools to do so? The recent shooting in Maryland negated that illusion anyway.

You can just give up and try to comfort these people because they're being emotional, but I'm not about to just let someone take away my freedom because they have the disillusioned idea that they'll somehow be safer.

The media coverage right now gives the impression that the occurrence or risk has suddenly become much higher. They do the same thing with shark attacks and child abductions some years.

If you try to have emotions/feelings as a basis for human existence, you can't build a viable society out of that.

John Adams had it right when he called out those that tried to get what they want due to social pressure;

“Be not intimidated...nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency.
These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.”
― John Adams

[Fmedges]

Every thing that the left say they needed to be safe was in place before the Parkland shooting. "See something, say something." Background checks. Yet, the government at all levels in Florida completely short-circuited the system or failed to act entirely.

"We need more government restrictions!"

...and we're being divisive by pointing out that the government is totally ineffective at providing the people safety. Murder is illegal, yet if you stack on a bunch of new laws, they'll obey them? Laws are only applicable to those people that police themselves.

"We need a ban on high-capacity magazines!" None of which were used in Parkland or in the worst school shooting in history, Virginia Tech. "We need to ban "assault weapons"!" which are defined by cosmetics. Virginia Tech shooting involved 2 handguns.

How do you rationalize that an adult between the ages of 18-20 has their right to self-preservation protected by the 2nd Amendment, but no ability to purchase the tools to do so? The recent shooting in Maryland negated that illusion anyway.

You can just give up and try to comfort these people because they're being emotional, but I'm not about to just let someone take away my freedom because they have the disillusioned idea that they'll somehow be safer.

The media coverage right now gives the impression that the occurrence or risk has suddenly become much higher. They do the same thing with shark attacks and child abductions some years.

If you try to have emotions/feelings as a basis for human existence, you can't build a viable society out of that.

John Adams had it right when he called out those that tried to get what they want due to social pressure;
[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

What the hell are you talking about? Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just make stufff up? When did I say I was comforting anybody? This is the kind of bullshit I’m talking about. This is how we come together as firearms owners and present a unified front? You need to adapt your thinking. The useful idiots don’t give a shit about facts. The illusion of safety makes them feel better.

[Skip]

What could gun owners do to be less divisive
Live in reality. Maybe it's just the fact that stupid people make more noise, but the whole "I can't wait until they kick down my door because then it's go time." That mentality is stupid at best. Gun owners as a group could never pull off the kind of measly rally that just happened in DC. All of these gun groups are their own worst enemy. They spend more time collecting money and fighting between themselves for membership than they do anything else. These groups are supposed to what? Escape the authorities where every they live and meet up in the woods to use their guerilla tactics to cripple the government and restore the Constitution? Give me a break. To accomplish this everyone would need to be self-less in their sacrifice. What do we see today? "We'll it's not my state so that sucks." "Only libs live in Commifornia". The exact opposite. The rights have already been infringed so when exactly is it time? "When it's time you'll know." All dumb shit that is said.

The reality of it is that we live in a society in which people are told every opinion (if you agree with me) matters. Feelings matter more than logic and security trumps freedom and privacy. Slowly most people are buying into it. Does it surprise you that the reasoning for the laws they want are grounded in feelings? Most people have internet accounts to share their actions or opinions throughout the day. I'm am not a fan of this, but then again who gives a shit other than me about my opinion? Our society clearly likes it.

In my opinion the judicial system, congress, the press and the military leadership are corrupt or at best not representing the "citizens" of this country. The patriot act destroy's the bill of rights and that's just the start, but what's the solution? At what point are you advocating for a way of life that no longer exists and the masses don't want it to exist? I don't believe that is today, but how many years? When I was younger I had to learn my lesson in doing and maybe the best way to learn is by hardship. I don't believe the government is hell bent on imprisoning and murdering it's citizens. After all who would pay them taxes?

You sound like you are doing great work, but the cards are stacked against all of us. Nobody cares about your logic so honestly it's just a waste of time. Our society as a whole has to come to the decision that it doesn't want the government to run out of control, but as it sits today it's not going that way.

You and I actually have a lot of the same concerns. I admit I don't have all the answers either other than to stand firm, be sincere, and explain that my position is not out of ignorance.

We do have a leadership vacuum and it needs to be filled with real people. Dana Loesch is a great example. And I don't have enough time in my day to show you what Libs have said about her, how they have threatened her family, and wished her dead for it. But we don't encourage good leadership by abandoning a fight. Misguided can be fixed, apathy not so much.

A lot of your frustration seems to be leveled at the orgs, and I share it. That's why I let my NRA membership lapse for the first time in ? years. Sure don't see them much these last few weeks either! The thing that brings me comfort is that the NRA was always gun owners/supporters, or at least the ones willing to part with the fees. Those people and their values still exist even if not being effectively represented.

I really don't see a way to address the issue that doesn't involve discussing door kicking because that is very much what is being demanded. I can't be upset that someone calls Libs out on that and challenges them to admit they want violence on gun owners (today, others tomorrow). I also can't be upset at folks who are asking good questions about morality and aggression and discussing the issue. For example, a school shooting is a horrible exception (crime) committed by an individual. But making someone a felon and stacking up on his door is intentional, targeted, state violence. In order for Libs to really win on guns they have to be the tyrants we fear which legitimizes resistance. Tough subject and I'm not surprised people are put off by it, get upset, and make incendiary comments. I'm probably guilty of this at times as well but really try to be disciplined when talking to the other side.

The dominance of feelings exists because the people who feel have been sheltered from reality by design. It is part of our fight. Stepping back doesn't help them nor does it help us. How many of us have observed we are fighting for the rights of young people against young people? I get the social media thing. It's hard and full of double-standards. It's really shitty to spend time posting about the history of 2A only to be called an ammosexual or child murderer let alone have people threaten to "dox" you. But it's part of the marketplace of ideas in 2018. How unfair would it be to sit back, say nothing, watch the world go to shit, and say "I told you?"

There's also a bit of filtering and selection going on in the socials. It's really not representative of either side. Think about the person who has all day to post on the internet. Now think about the people in life you know who kick ass. Not the same person. I've had some time off the last few work days so I've been able to keep up with things more than usual. I need to get back to work!

Don't forget that our way of life does indeed exist in the hearts and minds of ~50% of the people in this country (judging by popular vote splits). The media and socials have intentionally tipped the scales to make us feel otherwise. When you hear 90% negative reporting on Trump for 2017 that means something and isn't organic. FB had a whole team to do the same in 2016. Twitter was caught "shadow banning." They want us to feel small, stupid, and insignificant and it works! It wouldn't be propaganda if it didn't. Then we ask why we're not organized! The level of negative psychology we're fighting here is massive. There's nothing sexy about being a Conservative or wanting small government. Very hard to promote a system where people pay their own bills and work. UNLESS we explain the merits and the hams of collectivism.

I've said before the country needs an amicable divorce (flame suit on but that's really the best solution for all involved IMHO).

This doesn't mean America is dead, and the other side knows this too which is why they won't stop at guns. China, Cuba, Russia, etc... They didn't just have to win the revolution but had to eliminate anyone who would advocate for better, bygone times.

[Gman]

You and I actually have a lot of the same concerns. I admit I don't have all the answers either other than to stand firm, be sincere, and explain that my position is not out of ignorance.

We do have a leadership vacuum and it needs to be filled with real people. Dana Loesch is a great example. And I don't have enough time in my day to show you what Libs have said about her, how they have threatened her family, and wished her dead for it. But we don't encourage good leadership by abandoning a fight. Misguided can be fixed, apathy not so much.

A lot of your frustration seems to be leveled at the orgs, and I share it. That's why I let my NRA membership lapse for the first time in ? years. Sure don't see them much these last few weeks either! The thing that brings me comfort is that the NRA was always gun owners/supporters, or at least the ones willing to part with the fees. Those people and their values still exist even if not being effectively represented.

I really don't see a way to address the issue that doesn't involve discussing door kicking because that is very much what is being demanded. I can't be upset that someone calls Libs out on that and challenges them to admit they want violence on gun owners (today, others tomorrow). I also can't be upset at folks who are asking good questions about morality and aggression and discussing the issue. For example, a school shooting is a horrible exception (crime) committed by an individual. But making someone a felon and stacking up on his door is intentional, targeted, state violence. In order for Libs to really win on guns they have to be the tyrants we fear which legitimizes resistance. Tough subject and I'm not surprised people are put off by it, get upset, and make incendiary comments. I'm probably guilty of this at times as well but really try to be disciplined when talking to the other side.

The dominance of feelings exists because the people who feel have been sheltered from reality by design. It is part of our fight. Stepping back doesn't help them nor does it help us. How many of us have observed we are fighting for the rights of young people against young people? I get the social media thing. It's hard and full of double-standards. It's really shitty to spend time posting about the history of 2A only to be called an ammosexual or child murderer let alone have people threaten to "dox" you. But it's part of the marketplace of ideas in 2018. How unfair would it be to sit back, say nothing, watch the world go to shit, and say "I told you?"

There's also a bit of filtering and selection going on in the socials. It's really not representative of either side. Think about the person who has all day to post on the internet. Now think about the people in life you know who kick ass. Not the same person. I've had some time off the last few work days so I've been able to keep up with things more than usual. I need to get back to work!

Don't forget that our way of life does indeed exist in the hearts and minds of ~50% of the people in this country (judging by popular vote splits). The media and socials have intentionally tipped the scales to make us feel otherwise. When you hear 90% negative reporting on Trump for 2017 that means something and isn't organic. FB had a whole team to do the same in 2016. Twitter was caught "shadow banning." They want us to feel small, stupid, and insignificant and it works! It wouldn't be propaganda if it didn't. Then we ask why we're not organized! The level of negative psychology we're fighting here is massive. There's nothing sexy about being a Conservative or wanting small government. Very hard to promote a system where people pay their own bills and work. UNLESS we explain the merits and the hams of collectivism.

I've said before the country needs an amicable divorce (flame suit on but that's really the best solution for all involved IMHO).

This doesn't mean America is dead, and the other side knows this too which is why they won't stop at guns. China, Cuba, Russia, etc... They didn't just have to win the revolution but had to eliminate anyone who would advocate for better, bygone times.

LIKE...BIG TIME

Sent from my electronic leash using Tapatalk

[Aloha_Shooter]

What could gun owners do to be less divisive

Your whole response fails with the title. It's not gun owners being divisive (with the exception of open carry activists that insist on pushing their points KNOWING they're hitting hot buttons).

[Great-Kazoo]

Your whole response fails with the title. It's not gun owners being divisive (with the exception of open carry activists that insist on pushing their points KNOWING they're hitting hot buttons).

Unfortunately anytime a gun person tries discussing any type of gun legislation, they're called divisive.

[Ridge]

Your whole response fails with the title. It's not gun owners being divisive (with the exception of open carry activists that insist on pushing their points KNOWING they're hitting hot buttons).

Specifically in regards to these kids, gun owners are by and large being divisive and resorting to calling the kids names and mocking them, rather than attempting any form of discussion.

[Rumline]

the divisiveness on both sides is at epic retard levels.

False equivalence.

[kidicarus13]

Good post