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  1. #11
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    I'm confused by your sizing procedure. I see you sizing the case down with a body die and then expanding the neck? Obviously, the neck diameter needs to be smaller, not larger, so I think there is something in your process I don't understand.


    Myself, I want to size the body and the neck in the same operation. Seems to me that should be the optimal situation for maintaining concentricity.


    I've gotten away from bushing dies and have moved to Forster dies that they hone to the exact neck dimension I want. These work great and don't leave that little section of the neck unsized like a bushing. It's cheap. Like $17 IIRC.


    I've noticed that the lube step is a much bigger deal than I'd originally thought. If all my cases are not lubed close to exactly the same, I get varying dimensions to the shoulder. Something to keep in mind in your process.
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  2. #12
    Varmiteer DireWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim K View Post
    I'm confused by your sizing procedure. I see you sizing the case down with a body die and then expanding the neck? Obviously, the neck diameter needs to be smaller, not larger, so I think there is something in your process I don't understand.

    Myself, I want to size the body and the neck in the same operation. Seems to me that should be the optimal situation for maintaining concentricity.
    More likely that I'm missing something or didn't explain properly, but the idea here (based on research only at this point, haven't ordered the mandrel/die pairs yet to split this out), is that the mandrel-based expansion is able to maintain better tolerances (e.g. size & neck tension consistency) and concentricity over the expander ball in a FL sizing die.

    So, unless I'm missing or misunderstanding something (easily possible), the FL die will size the case down first (below target neck diameter), then unlike having the expander re-upsize the neck (and set neck tension) in the same step, as a subsequent step the mandrel will expand the neck back up to -.002 (or -.001 if needed), and will be more consistent/concentric, in part, due to direction of force applied during neck expansion.

    The expander die body is universal (e.g. doesn't downsize/compress case), so both downsizing to proper headspace (and sub neck size), as well as expanding to (optimal neck tension) target diameter both occur during the compressive part of the operation, which should support tighter tolerances on the whole...(in theory at least, still need to test).

    Hopefully I'm not missing/misunderstanding any fundamental premises here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim K View Post
    I've noticed that the lube step is a much bigger deal than I'd originally thought. If all my cases are not lubed close to exactly the same, I get varying dimensions to the shoulder. Something to keep in mind in your process.
    That's good to know, and makes perfect sense now that I'm thinking about it. Great tip, thanks!
    Last edited by DireWolf; 10-31-2018 at 17:16.

  3. #13
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    Yes case lubes matters , Dillon case lube needs time for the alcohol carrier to flash off and the lanolin equalize or you'll end up with shoulder set back issues , I saw as much as 3 - 4 thou variance which is not good . Went to one shot and no more issues, got to use more than the instructions say .

    I'm partial to Redding dies , the Foresters are the same construction because they license the design from Redding . The Foresters are black bodies and there is no contrasting color in the micrometer numbers and are hard to read .

  4. #14
    Varmiteer DireWolf's Avatar
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    I've noticed the occasional variations, but was thinking it was either brass spring-back or operator error. Inconsistent/insufficient lube seems much more likely now, however.


    ETA: great tip on the indicator color-fill, thanks!
    Last edited by DireWolf; 10-31-2018 at 22:50.

  5. #15
    Feelings, Nothing more than feelings KS63's Avatar
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    Also, you need to pay attention to how square the case mouths are trimmed and are perfectly perpendicular to the case centerline. Same goes for your inside/outside chamfers. Inconsistencies will result in bullet runout and loss of accuracy. Learned this the hard way and, for me, I pay WAY more attention to case prep than which style of seater die I’m using.
    If the Odds are equal, you're doing it wrong

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  6. #16
    Varmiteer DireWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KS63 View Post
    Also, you need to pay attention to how square the case mouths are trimmed and are perfectly perpendicular to the case centerline. Same goes for your inside/outside chamfers. Inconsistencies will result in bullet runout and loss of accuracy. Learned this the hard way and, for me, I pay WAY more attention to case prep than which style of seater die I?m using.
    Thanks. This was part of the reason was planning to upgrade to either an RT1500 or Giraud, as my understanding is that either will help address those concerns more effectively.

    Haven't decided which yet, but just based on research so-far, the Dillon seems to be more versatile with an ability to handle straight-walled cases (but no direct experience with either yet).

  7. #17
    Woodsmith with "Mod-like" Powers
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    Ok, I think I understand your neck procedure. Myself, I'd skip all that and get a die sized (bushing or honed) to give you the correct neck diameter without an expander ball. This has a couple of advantages.

    1. You're working your brass less. This will be good for brass life.
    2. You won't need to lube the inside of the neck. I find this to be key to making loading on a progressive press work. Lube in the neck will catch powder and make a mess. Stick powder is not so bad, but with ball powder it's a real problem.

    I have a Giraud and wouldn't trade it for anything. It integrates into my process perfectly.

    BTW, here's my process starting with dirty brass.

    1. Anneal in the AMP annealer
    2. Trim in the Giraud. I had shell holders reamed out to hold fired brass.
    3. Tumble clean (wet or dry depending on my mood)
    4. Lube with OneShot

    The following 3 steps all happen simultaneously on the Dillon
    5. Size. No expander ball.
    6. Powder. Weighed charges for bolt gun ammo and load development on AR's, thrown charges for production AR ammo.
    7. Seat a bullet. I use Forster or Redding micrometer dies

    8. Tumble for 5 minutes in corn cob to remove the lube
    "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your ignorance"

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  8. #18
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    This right here is the best money I ever spent on reloading tools and is still the very first thing I reccomend,

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...4Q-ZzjtOKYJWFB

    There is a lot of institutional voodoo that is accepted that is a real waste of time that is tested and discussed in the book in detail.

  9. #19
    Feelings, Nothing more than feelings KS63's Avatar
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    Tim K- I’m assuming your honed sizing dies were special ordered and they had to take a virgin die to make yours. How long did Forster take to deliver? Thanks
    If the Odds are equal, you're doing it wrong

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  10. #20
    Woodsmith with "Mod-like" Powers
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    Quote Originally Posted by KS63 View Post
    Tim K- I’m assuming your honed sizing dies were special ordered and they had to take a virgin die to make yours. How long did Forster take to deliver? Thanks
    It was just a few days. I ordered the die directly from them, specified the neck diameter, and they showed up 10 days later.
    "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your ignorance"

    Thomas Sowell

    www.timkulincabinetry.com

    See our reviews below:

    http://www.thumbtack.com/Tim-Kulin-C...service/788419

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