Question about precision dies

[DireWolf]

Having trouble finding good info on a topic regarding precision dies, and was hoping to get some guidance from the group on a couple questions:

1. Are there any material benefits (either way) to using micrometer seating hand dies vs. standard micrometer dies? (e.g. Wilson micrometer hand seater dies vs. conventional micrometer seating dies)?

2. Based on answer to the first question, any advice on preference between Forster Ultra Micrometer seater dies vs. Redding Competition micrometer seater dies (or others)?


Thanks!


ETA: Here are three links to examples of the different (specific) dies I'm referring to:

Hand dies (uses arbor-press):
https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod65610.aspx

Forster dies:
https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod59246.aspx

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...rod109546.aspx

Redding dies:
https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...prod38694.aspx

[Great-Kazoo]

Depends what you're loading for. Precision, defensive, or everyday shooting ?

[DireWolf]

Depends what you're loading for. Precision, defensive, or everyday shooting ?

The main focus in this case would be precision, consistency, and efficiency for load development (e.g. speed of load/test iterations & data tracking).

Desired process/outcome (and justification for purchasing the more expensive micrometer dies) would be to develop & test optimal loads at the range, while facilitating ease & speed of making precise adjustments and capturing of metrics and load/dimensional data, which can subsequently be used to dial-in standard dies w/ dedicated toolheads (and various press/process tweaks) on progressive machine for volume production...

Unless my understanding of this is off, it seems as if the best way to achive an optimal balance of high-volume and accurate/consistent production (best of both worlds) is to split this into seperate load development & production process optimization tasks, with each handled fully independently of the other.

That said, I'm a novice with this compared to many other board members, so it's easily possible that I'm either missing something in this or chasing a solution which is already well known to others.

ETA: original post updated with links to specific dies/types in question

[KS63]

I personally prefer the sliding sleeve seater design that Forster and Redding both manufacture. The Forster has the option of a micrometer or standard knurled adjusters. I get more consistent runout using the sliding sleeve design as compared to a standard seater, though I’ve achieved equal accuracy from both. From your stated goals, I’d say get a Forster Ultra Micrometer seater die or the Redding.

[C Ward]

Get Zediker's book about reloading for competition, it covers all of that and more .

Don't get wrapped up in the type / brand of dies but if they load straight ammo or not , as an example look at all the issues people have had with Whidden dies .

[earplug]

The Redding seating die with the sliding sleeve works better then a standard die if your loading long high BC bullets.
I like the finish and close tolerance on the Redding I bought a set in 9MM. Precision is nice to look at.

[Delfuego]

I prefer micrometer seating dies so I can read the changes I make. The performance is similar with most, some are harder to read than others. I use Whidden and Forster, they both work great, but prefer the Forster. I wouldn't bother with an arbor press unless your loading for Benchrest or similar. FL sizing dies control should bump, base sizing, runout and neck tension. Those are far more important than seating depth. Don't get me wrong, seating depth is still very important, but proper sizing is critical. Ironically the best finish I ever had at a national match was at an ELR match. I loaded that ammo with the cheapest dies Redding makes. Measuring tools/gauges are also critical.

[Grant H.]

I have Redding dies specifically for the precision rifle calibers that I own, and while they are expensive, I would buy them again.

The ability to dial my distance from the lands with ease is very nice when it's time for a new rifle or barrel, but the consistency and concentricity of seating achieved with the sliding sleeve of the Redding dies is worth it.

[Tim K]

I have used Forster, Redding, and Whidden. The first two are great and basically equivalent. Whidden is crap.

Take careful note of what Chuck and Delfuego said. While seating depth is one important aspect of a precision round, it's not the only one. Getting the bullet concentric with the case so it enters the lands at the smallest possible angle is a big deal.

I load all precision ammo on progressive presses. For ultimate accuracy (bolt guns and load development) I individually weigh and trickle up charges. For larger volume (Presicion AR ammo), I just throw the charges. If you do your load development correctly and find a nice wide charge weight node, your production ammo can often use thrown charges without sacrificing much in terms of accuracy and SD.

[DireWolf]

Thanks everyone, this is exactly the info I was looking for!

I prefer micrometer seating dies so I can read the changes I make.
...
I wouldn't bother with an arbor press unless your loading for Benchrest or similar.

This was the main reason I've been looking at the micrometer versions - ability to easily read/record data & spec changes. The question of regular vs. benchrest dies really was more toward which would be most consistent, efficient, etc.

The arbor vs conventional press consideration isn't really an issue here, as the one I'll be using has an arbor-style conversion. These are links to that specific press/conversion (little miffed that currently on sale for $20 less than what I recently paid):

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...prod64666.aspx

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...42-158521.aspx

FL sizing dies control should bump, base sizing, runout and neck tension. Those are far more important than seating depth. Don't get me wrong, seating depth is still very important, but proper sizing is critical.
...
Measuring tools/gauges are also critical.

The ability to dial my distance from the lands with ease is very nice when it's time for a new rifle or barrel, but the consistency and concentricity of seating achieved with the sliding sleeve of the Redding dies is worth it.

While seating depth is one important aspect of a precision round, it's not the only one. Getting the bullet concentric with the case so it enters the lands at the smallest possible angle is a big deal.

^This was also my understanding, and while possible am way overthinking things, the approach I'm taking is:

1. Rather than just running with min/max SAAMI specs, planning to use the following chamber guage for determining max cartridge OAL, and using the lowest "max" number to support chambering in all of my caliber-matching barrels.

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...491-68249.aspx

2. For case prep & sizing (not counting one-off stuff like primer pocket swaging & flash-hole deburring), what I'm doing to control those variables (e.g. tension, concentricity, etc.) is:

After initial wet-tumble:

a. Using dedicated "prep" toolheads for the 650, which include a FL (carbide) sizing/depriming die (FL only, no neck sizing) with the neck expander removed. Brass may or may not have been deprimed prior to this on a lee hand press, but if not will be done here.

b. Neck sizing in station 2 using expander die body & carbide mandrel:

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...807-74483.aspx

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...422-63473.aspx

c. Still trying to decide between Dillon RT1500 vs. Giraud trimmer, not sure which would be best. My understanding is both will chamfer/deburr as part of the cut, and either would be a leap above & beyond the basic trimmer I have now. If it's the dillon, the prep toolhead(s) would have a station die/mount for this as well.

d. Last steps would be final wet-tumble and batch-based sampling w/ case gauge; failures would either be pruned or re-run, but will need to determine appropriate sample size & acceptable failure/deviation rate (if any; this sampling approach is the only part that makes me nervous).

If that doesn't get me to a good place, thinking that the next steps would be adding prep stages for neck turning & annealing.

I have Redding dies specifically for the precision rifle calibers that I own, and while they are expensive, I would buy them again.

I have used Forster, Redding, and Whidden. The first two are great and basically equivalent. Whidden is crap.
...
While seating depth is one important aspect of a precision round, it's not the only one. Getting the bullet concentric with the case so it enters the lands at the smallest possible angle is a big deal.

^This was another big item where the feedback is hugely helpful.

In the case of certain calibers (e.g. 6.5CM) where Dillon doesn't have dies, it seems like - all things being equal - the Redding Precision Dies make more sense as they come in a full set (as well as individually), but for others where I may already have a set of Dillon carbide dies, was thinking the individual Forster die might be the way to go.

This is mostly relevant to the "porta-kit", as the plan is to have a second dedicated 650 toolhead per-caliber (expectation is to have duplicate dies for each caliber with exception of size/expander dies; one in "porta-kit" and the other on toolhead), set up as follows:

a. A Lee Universal Decapper in Station 1, just to make sure I don't end up with any loaded rounds with a plugged flash hole. Manually checking each case for this (on top of all the other checks) just seems like an overly tedious task which can be avoided.

b. Rest of stations set up in more standard fashion, with drop, powder check, seater, and crimper (as appropriate).

Bulk production priming done at this stage as well, but individually priming for load dev inline (from a selection of primers kept in kit) using one of these:
https://www.brownells.com/reloading/...732-70817.aspx

Also planning to get some additional gauges/comperators for load dev and volume-production batch-sampling; need to do more reasearch on optimally efficient methods.

I load all precision ammo on progressive presses. For ultimate accuracy (bolt guns and load development) I individually weigh and trickle up charges. For larger volume (Presicion AR ammo), I just throw the charges. If you do your load development correctly and find a nice wide charge weight node, your production ammo can often use thrown charges without sacrificing much in terms of accuracy and SD.

^This is exactly what I'm hoping to achieve, in as streamlined and efficient manner as I can.


Thanks again for the info!