Question about precision dies

[KS63]

Thanks. I think this is the way to go as far as sizing. You can have a “custom” die for less than $100.

[DireWolf]

Ok, I think I understand your neck procedure. Myself, I'd skip all that and get a die sized (bushing or honed) to give you the correct neck diameter without an expander ball. This has a couple of advantages.

1. You're working your brass less. This will be good for brass life.
2. You won't need to lube the inside of the neck. I find this to be key to making loading on a progressive press work. Lube in the neck will catch powder and make a mess. Stick powder is not so bad, but with ball powder it's a real problem.

That makes perfect sense, and seems to get to the same place/result in a more streamlined fashion.

Only question I have would be, how much impact do you see from case wall thickness variations using that approach?

With all forming performed on external surfaces, would you not see corresponding variations in neck ID? If so, would that fall below any reasonable threshold for impact? Contrasted with forming to desired neck ID based on internal contact points (making wall thicknesses less relevant; at least insofar as neck diameter/tension, if not case volume, etc.)

Also, honed sizing dies would be to standard target dimentions correct? (e.g. caliber specific w/ some custom specs, as opposed to chamber-specific from fired/formed case).

The lube inside case necks is a solid point, but I haven't been to concerned with that just because I'm probably over-killing it with the wet tumble (easy to just throw a load in and walk away for a couple hours, and no big deal if something comes up and I have to leave turning a while longer), and by separating the prep and load stages, with final wet ss tumble after prep, hoping not to run into that particular issue.

I have a Giraud and wouldn't trade it for anything. It integrates into my process perfectly.

BTW, here's my process starting with dirty brass.

1. Anneal in the AMP annealer
2. Trim in the Giraud. I had shell holders reamed out to hold fired brass.
3. Tumble clean (wet or dry depending on my mood)
4. Lube with OneShot

Is there any benefit to trimming prior to resizing, other than eliminating a wash cycle?

Also, are you re-annealing each batch?


This is great info, thanks! Apologies for the bit of topic drift from OP, or if any of these are dumb questions.

[DireWolf]

This right here is the best money I ever spent on reloading tools and is still the very first thing I reccomend,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...4Q-ZzjtOKYJWFB

There is a lot of institutional voodoo that is accepted that is a real waste of time that is tested and discussed in the book in detail.

That looks interesting, going to order a copy (and one or two related ones that showed up in the suggestions).

Thanks!

[Tim K]

I don't know that I can shoot any accuracy differences there might be between turned and unturned necks or between necks sized on the inside vs outside. My good guns shoot groups in the 0.1"-0.3" range, and that's plenty good enough for me. I run Lapua brass when I can, and it's pretty consistent in thickness. Not worth worrying about.

I have my dies honed to the dimension I want based on bullet dimensions and brass thickness. Chamber dimensions do not come into play.

I trim when I do only to make it fit into my process. If I trimmed after sizing, I wouldn't be progressively reloading anymore.

I anneal after every firing. It's fast and easy, and I think I get more consistent resizing and neck tension that way.

[DireWolf]

Extremely helpful, thanks!

[Delfuego]

1. Rather than just running with min/max SAAMI specs, planning to use the following chamber guage for determining max cartridge OAL, and using the lowest "max" number to support chambering in all of my caliber-matching barrels.

2. For case prep & sizing (not counting one-off stuff like primer pocket swaging & flash-hole deburring), what I'm doing to control those variables (e.g. tension, concentricity, etc.) is:

After initial wet-tumble:

a. Using dedicated "prep" toolheads for the 650, which include a FL (carbide) sizing/depriming die (FL only, no neck sizing) with the neck expander removed. Brass may or may not have been deprimed prior to this on a lee hand press, but if not will be done here.

b. Neck sizing in station 2 using expander die body & carbide mandrel:

I would get a set of either Sinclair or Hornady case gauges immediately! These gauges (shoulder bump & bullet comparator) allow you to precisely measure the changes to you bras after you fire them, resize them and what your bullet seating is. I also recommend the Sinclair seating depth gauge. This will tell you where the lands are in your barrel. Without tools like this you are just guessing your measurements. Also get a good set of calipers, they don't have to be Mitutoyo, but good ones none the less. I use iGauging Origin.

Do not mess with primer pockets or flash holes! Just buy good brass Lapua or similar. It is accurate, consistent and lasts a long time.

Do not neck size! This does nothing beneficial and will end up biting you later. Just get a good Full-Length sizing die and be done after one pass.

Neck tension is important. This is where bushing dies or honed dies come into play. A bushing die allows you to change the desired tension of the neck on the bullet. 2-3 thousands is usually good. These measurements are taken from a fired case vs a sized case vs a loaded case. With Forster dies (and some others) you can either give them the desired measurement, or send them a fired case to have them "open up" or hone out a die to your desire neck diameter. I have done this and it works great. I have also used bushing dies to get the same result, albeit more expensive.

Also I always use the expander button on my brass. Some people will say it's bad, I don't care. I have had bad results without it and don't want the extra step of using a mandrel.

If your gonna wet tumble, be aware that seating pressure might be heavier and the necks could benefit from chamfer and deburr after SS tumbling.

[Delfuego]

Is there any benefit to trimming prior to resizing,

Trim after resizing. Cases get longer during FL resizing. I almost never trim, cause I hate it, only when it has to be done.

[C Ward]

Smash balls with hammer or neck turn a batch of brass , hmmm , where's the hammer. Only way I neck turn brass again is if it absolutely is the difference between me shooting or not .

I load in 2 processes on my 650 , brass prep and ammo construction . All the steps that need case lube are completed on one tool head , deprime and size , and the swap the tool head out and load ammo on clean dry cases .

[DireWolf]

All good points!

I would get a set of either Sinclair or Hornady case gauges immediately! These gauges (shoulder bump & bullet comparator) allow you to precisely measure the changes to you bras after you fire them, resize them and what your bullet seating is. I also recommend the Sinclair seating depth gauge. This will tell you where the lands are in your barrel. Without tools like this you are just guessing your measurements. Also get a good set of calipers, they don't have to be Mitutoyo, but good ones none the less. I use iGauging Origin.

I've got some of this already, although existing case gauges are the basic "good enough" min/max variety, planning to order the precision ones and the Sinclair depth gauge shortly. Have been looking at additional items such as micrometer case guages, comperator/thickness/concentricity/etc. gauges, just deciding which ones are needed prefered.

One thing I may not have clarified is that I'm trying to build commonality of optimized process (excepting stages not applicable to straight-wall cases), with minor variations as applicable, across 11 different calibers (currently), and while the priority-stack may vary a bit, the same overall process goals apply to all.

Do not mess with primer pockets or flash holes! Just buy good brass Lapua or similar. It is accurate, consistent and lasts a long time.

Unfortunately this isn't really an option for me overall.

In the case of 6.5CM, have been slowly acquiring boxes of small-primer Lapua brass while working through a bunch of factory stuff originally purchased.

Other than that, I already have a significant qty. of brass which is slowly being baseline cleaned/processed; the vast majority of which is from factory ammo personally fired/collected, but also includes a few thousand (give or take) pieces of other slightly-mixed HS once-fired .308/7.62 brass. Lots of crimped Nato stuff altogether...

Trying to keep minimal at single-pass with swager/deburring tool, and just a quick touch with cleaning tool/brush as needed thereafter.

Do not neck size! This does nothing beneficial and will end up biting you later. Just get a good Full-Length sizing die and be done after one pass.

Neck tension is important. This is where bushing dies or honed dies come into play. A bushing die allows you to change the desired tension of the neck on the bullet. 2-3 thousands is usually good. These measurements are taken from a fired case vs a sized case vs a loaded case. With Forster dies (and some others) you can either give them the desired measurement, or send them a fired case to have them "open up" or hone out a die to your desire neck diameter. I have done this and it works great. I have also used bushing dies to get the same result, albeit more expensive.

Also I always use the expander button on my brass. Some people will say it's bad, I don't care. I have had bad results without it and don't want the extra step of using a mandrel.

I'm only doing FL sizing, was planning to stick with that approach.

The main intent of using the mandrels w/ body die instead of the expander ball for is attempting to achieve optimally consistent neck tension & concentricity, without having to be as concerned with inconsistencies in (or known) brass thicknesses.

I'm also still early in the learning/observation curve with this, (and we've drifted a bit off OT), so it's entirely possible that my current understanding/perspective & hypothesis regarding the mechanics involved are flawed, but am trying to close as many knowledge gaps as possible while working through it...

[Tim K]

Trim after resizing. Cases get longer during FL resizing. I almost never trim, cause I hate it, only when it has to be done.

Either way works great with a Giruad. I'm just barely smart enough to compensate for the fact that the case length is going to change after I size. Just barely.