General vehicle thread

[CS1983]

In all fairness, he did mention bathroom and fueling up. But, fueling up + bathroom takes maybe 5-10 min and one is back on the road for another 300 miles+. How long would it take an EV to charge for that distance?

[00tec]

In all fairness, he did mention bathroom and fueling up. But, fueling up + bathroom takes maybe 5-10 min and one is back on the road for another 300 miles+. How long would it take an EV to charge for that distance?

Seems like I had this discussion once upon a time. Jer and I did not really reach an agreement.

[Mtneer]

In all fairness, he did mention bathroom and fueling up. But, fueling up + bathroom takes maybe 5-10 min and one is back on the road for another 300 miles+. How long would it take an EV to charge for that distance?

Yep. It's 520 miles from here to Salt Lake and takes 8 hours, with stops. It's almost 750 miles to Ketchum and that takes 12 hours, with stops. When an EV can get even close to those times, I'll be interested. So what, another 20 years?

[Jer]

In all fairness, he did mention bathroom and fueling up. But, fueling up + bathroom takes maybe 5-10 min and one is back on the road for another 300 miles+. How long would it take an EV to charge for that distance?

It depends on many variables and factors but in our instance we stopped about every 2 hours and the total stop was usually about 20min or so before we were able to get back on the road. That was about how long we'd be driving before we were looking to exit to use the restroom and grab a water anyway. You exit, plug in, walk to the nearest convenience store to stretch your legs & use the bathroom, grab some water & some snacks and by the time you got back to the car you had less than 10 minutes to wait in most cases. There really was no point during our 2,500 miles over 5 days that we were wishing we could just keep driving instead of stopping. At no point did we find ourselves saying "another stop? I was just getting into the groove here and wanted to keep going" so I don't put a lot of weight in people claiming that having to stop to charge would alter their lives significantly especially when we're talking about something most people do once a year on average.

Those numbers are close to a worse case scenario within the Tesla lineup as well. It was in a 60kWh car and most these days are north of 75kWh with several in the 100kWh range being made today. The difference is a car that gets around 200 miles of range versus car that gets around 300 miles of range. The new Long Range Model 3 gets closer to 350 miles or range or damn near double the range of the car we have. In the not-so-distant future we'll see cars north of that. Our car with a max range of 200 miles exceeds our normal daily commute by 10x though so I think people put too much weight in long road trips but that too has been addressed by Tesla and continues getting better.

Another key is that recent announcements have stated that Tesla will be not only doubling the Supercharger stations again in 2019 but will also be "significantly increasing the charge speed" all at the same time. Some are predicting that charge speeds could nearly double which will halve the amount of time you sit charging. So instead of 20-25min on average more like 10-12min. That's for cars already made and already on the road today not future technology which could see improvements on both charging and battery side to cut that down even more.

The higher the capacity of the battery the longer the range which is obvious to most. What isn't as obvious is that the higher the capacity the faster they take a charge. This means that those larger capacity batteries not only require less stops but sit for less time when they do stop. Hence my statement that our car is basically a worst case scenario and it was still perfectly enjoyable.

They're also making some advancements that some are speculating will arrive in vehicles in the next few years or so that will both increase range as well as decrease battery and cost to produce. The forthcoming Roadster (supposed to come out in about two years) is estimated to have a range of over 600 miles. That's absurd and coming awfully close to some people's pie-in-the-sky idea of what range an EV should have. This doesn't even factor in what technology upgrades are on the horizon which will make charge times faster, longer range, lower cost and longer life. The deal they just inked buying the battery tech company last week is reported to have pioneered a tech that will add over 20% range to existing batteries and make them longer lasting, lighter weight and lower cost. Some speculate that this tech could see it's way into a refreshed version of the Model S/X or Roadster which would mean that we see that in the next couple of years.

[Jer]

Yep. It's 520 miles from here to Salt Lake and takes 8 hours, with stops. It's almost 750 miles to Ketchum and that takes 12 hours, with stops. When an EV can get even close to those times, I'll be interested. So what, another 20 years?

Yep, 20 years.










...Or it exist already today. I seem to recall doing a similar exercise about these trips that were supposedly not possible for EVs in other threads too and it was crickets whenever I produced the facts.

According to the Tesla Trip Planner that trip from Boulder to SLC can be made in about 9 hours including stops to charge up. The trip from Boulder to Ketchum ID can be made in about 14 hours with stops. Both of those estimates are doing the speed limit so if you go faster than that (which I assume if you're making the times you state with stops for gas) those times would be even closer to the "untouchable" numbers you stated.

Oh, did I mention that if I took those trips right now in our used Tesla Model S all of those miles are free? Thanks to the free unlimited lifetime Supercharging that came with our car. You may have noticed the estimated gas savings in that Tesla trip planner I linked to if you play with it at all.

So, when is the Tesla test drive?

[00tec]

Except the free supercharging for life was discontinued, unless you get a used car that happens to have it transferrable.

[Martinjmpr]

It depends on many variables and factors but in our instance we stopped about every 2 hours and the total stop was usually about 20min or so before we were able to get back on the road.

So at a charging location how many "stations" do they have? Because it seems like this model works great as long as EV's are relatively rare.

If EVs start becoming more common then that "20 minute" charge time can easily be an hour if there are 3 people in line ahead of you waiting to charge.

[Jer]

Except the free supercharging for life was discontinued, unless you get a used car that happens to have it transferrable.

That is correct. Any new car purchased as of the date of this post no longer includes it. I say it that way because Tesla may extend this at some point to other cars or offer promotions from time to time which they've been known to do. Also, in times of emergency they've been known to allow free Supercharging and unlock any software limitations on range temporarily. Any used car that was delivered prior to Jan 2017 will include it free for life and it 100% transfers with the car from owner to owner to owner in perpetuity. Even the new cars that don't get it for free don't pay that much of a free to use this network. For those average stops I described you can expect $7 give or take. Still better than what gas would cost even if you do have to pay for it. That's another selling point to finding a used one that has it if that's an important feature to you. On paper it sounds awesome but even if you travel a few long trips every year you're not really saving a fortune. You will over what you'd pay in gas but the difference between unlimited free supercharging and pay supercharging is nominal IMO.

That's beside the point though. I threw that extra tidbit in as an extra bonus to the point which was that the exact hypotheticals he challenged with were entirely doable with today's technology available right now.

[Jer]

So at a charging location how many "stations" do they have? Because it seems like this model works great as long as EV's are relatively rare.

If EVs start becoming more common then that "20 minute" charge time can easily be an hour if there are 3 people in line ahead of you waiting to charge.

This is exactly why they started charging for Supercharging because some were abusing it. Keep in mind that even though they're charging for the use of the network they're profiting from it. They're also using the money coming in from that to dump right back into the network and expand it and improve it. In 2016 Tesla announced they would double the number of Supercharger stations in existence in 2017 & 2018 which they did and then some. They announced at the end of last year that they would double the total number again but this time they'd do it in a single year which would require four times the rate of installation. This is in answer to the massive ramp up in sales to make sure that this doesn't become an issue. Increasing the charge rate will also do a lot to free up the stalls.

They also started enacting fines for those who remain in stalls beyond their battery being full. I personally have never heard of anyone actually being charged for this but they sure warn you of it's existence.

To answer your other question, there is usually about 6-8 stalls with some being in the dozen or more range. I've never experienced a situation where I pulled up to a stall and didn't have one available for use. In fact, the nav shows you how many stalls each location has as well as how many are currently in use so you can choose to go to another one if it's full. This is super rare other than highly populated areas and they usually install several nearby for this exact reason.

While I agree that waiting in line would be terrible I can tell you from personal experience that there would have to be a TON more cars using them for this to be an issue. Most of the time we pulled up to a station that had 10 stalls and we were the only one there the entire time we were charging. That's not to say that some weren't busier but it was the exception and not the rule. In short, while it is possible, I'm not too worried about it.

[Irving]

How can they possibly enforce leaving your car on a charger for too long?