RMEF Warns of Colorado Wolf Reintroduction Ballot Initiative

[def90]

I didn't listen from front to back, BUT I did catch where they discussed Colo.

No doubt that wolves won't wipe out any one species, much like coyotes, their numbers fluctuate following their prey base. Less prey to eat, less coyote pups that live to maturity. Same with wolves. But we still have to manage their numbers to keep the number of conflicts to a low roar. Can you imagine if coyote hunting was banned. Sure, they wouldn't wipe out the antelope, or the rabbits, or the mice, or the cattle, but a guy could guess with a high probability of being right what would happen if their numbers weren't kept in check. And we all witnessed how the other states battled years and years to even get a season open to hunt wolves. This state won't be any different.


Also, we have to remember too that Colo. has a much higher human population then any other state that currently has wolves. ...CO 52 people per square mile, ID 20 per, MT 7 per and WY 6 per. The human interactions with wolves will increase as our population increases and could be expected to be worse then in any of the other states currently.

I wonder, if/when wolves are reintroduced in Colo., who will foot the bill? Hunters dollars? Tax payers dollars?
Do you think if the money all comes from the CDOW&P that hunters will be happy about it? Being like cutting your nose of in spite of your face. As a hunter, I hate that it takes years to get a quality tag as it is, with wolves being brought in it won't make it any easier.

Minnesota has 66 people per square mile and the highest population of wolves in the lower 48, 2278 vs Idaho at 770.. how many times have you heard in the news about wolf issues in Minnesota?

as for wolves in Colorado, they are already on their way. I favor a natural introduction as prey animals will have time to adapt. There is no reason to rush something that is already happening naturally.

[TRnCO]

Coyotes are different than wolves in that the more we kill them, the more coyotes there are. If there were no coyote hunting, there would be far less coyotes.

That's not a true statement. Coyotes do have the ability to have larger litters when food supply is high and visa-versa, BUT if we stop hunting them there won't be less, UNLESS their food supply declines, which would have to include everything they eat, and what they eat is a very wide variety from insects, fruit, and anything of meat. About the only two events that I've ever seen have a great impact on coyote numbers is disease and severe drought.

I challenge you to find any cattle rancher that wants no coyote hunting on his land because he believes no hunting will lead to fewer coyotes. You would think if no hunting equaled fewer coyotes, a rancher would be the first to know it.

[Irving]

Back when we extricated wolves from the US, they had bounties on wolves and coyotes. Every year the population of wolves dropped, and so did the number of bounties paid out. Every year the population of coyotes stayed the same and the bounties paid out on coyotes remained the same. Not only was hunting pressure not effective in lowering coyote populations, but it pushed coyotes into areas that they did not inhabit before. There are coyotes in every single major US city and that was not the case when settled this country. Yellowstone is a great resource for watching what happens with many species let alone with zero hunting pressure. The coyote population in Yellowstone initially rose, then leveled off and has remained the same since (well until the wolves came back anyway).

I'm not advocating that people shouldn't hunt coyotes, only that hunting is not an effective method of population control. Cattle ranchers can and do believe what they want, but hunting coyotes doesn't put a dent in the population. It's pretty much the same with pigs. People who say they are hunting them to control the population are either lying to justify their love of hunting pigs/coyotes, or are misinformed in the effect their hunting is having. Again, I don't care either way, just pointing some things out.

[Irving]

Here is a historical reference about coyote bounties in Kansas. Kansas paid out so many bounties year after year that they first raised the price, then had to lower it because they couldn't afford to pay. At some point they suggested building a fence along three sides of the state to keep coyotes from Nebraska, Colorado, and Oklahoma out of the state, and even birth control.

https://www.kshs.org/publicat/histor...tumn_antle.pdf

[Irving]

Here is another paper: https://mdc.mo.gov/blogs/more-quail/bounty-hunter
and this excerpt that reads:

Do they work?
The short answer is "no," at least not if the goal is to reduce a predator's population, recruit new hunters or improve game populations. In addition, there may be unintended consequences and your time can be spent doing better activities.

Let’s look at what happened in Missouri when we had a bounty system on coyotes from 1936-1947. A study of this bounty system showed that while it resulted in the destruction of large numbers of predators, it did not reduce the damage to livestock or the number of complaints. “Eleven years of bounty figures offers no evidence that the population of coyotes has been reduced thereby.”

They also compared the bounty system to hiring “government trappers” to respond to landowner complaints of coyotes killing livestock. They determined it was effective in reducing problem-causing coyotes, but was too expensive for the counties to continue and did nothing to reduce the overall coyote population. It was noted at that time the most cost-effective method is what the Department does presently, train landowners to trap problem predators which are killing livestock.

[def90]

That's not a true statement. Coyotes do have the ability to have larger litters when food supply is high and visa-versa, BUT if we stop hunting them there won't be less, UNLESS their food supply declines, which would have to include everything they eat, and what they eat is a very wide variety from insects, fruit, and anything of meat. About the only two events that I've ever seen have a great impact on coyote numbers is disease and severe drought.

I challenge you to find any cattle rancher that wants no coyote hunting on his land because he believes no hunting will lead to fewer coyotes. You would think if no hunting equaled fewer coyotes, a rancher would be the first to know it.

Actually it has been shown that when you kill coyotes they have larger litters and unlike wolves they will split packs and disperse in singles and pairs, wolves will die as a pack. When coyotes do their howling late in the evening just after sunset they are doing a sort of roll call. When populations dip and some coyotes do not respond they naturally produce larger litters and in extreme conditions they split off from their groups and spread. Coyotes historically only existed in the South West US, over the last century as the government waged their war on coyotes the only thing that was accomplished was that they are now found in all lower 48 states. These responses are documented in the book “Coyote America” by Dan Flores. After reading about some of this I did a bit of research online about ranchers and coyotes which led me to some farming and ranching forums and the general consensus on coyotes was that any time a coyote scavenged calf was found the calf had died of natural causes and the coyotes were scavenging the carcass.

[TRnCO]

I'm not advocating that people shouldn't hunt coyotes, only that hunting is not an effective method of population control. Cattle ranchers can and do believe what they want, but hunting coyotes doesn't put a dent in the population. It's pretty much the same with pigs. People who say they are hunting them to control the population are either lying to justify their love of hunting pigs/coyotes, or are misinformed in the effect their hunting is having. Again, I don't care either way, just pointing some things out.

I agree with all of this, BUT this is far from what you stated earlier. I know very well that hunting in general really has little impact on the coyote population in general. It's a temporary reduction, at best. I read a study some where that showed that 70% of a coyote population would have to be killed annually, to have an actual impact on numbers. Hunting can't do that. That's why many ranchers pay for government airplane gunning and trapping.
Now did hunting push coyotes into big cities, or did the coyote adapt to an area where they have plenty of food, and yes, no hunting pressure. Did at one time cites allow shooting within the city limits, and now they don't? To say that hunting pushed coyotes into the suburbs is arguable. IMO, they adapted to an area where they find lots of easy food and eventually they lose their fear of man. Plenty of coyotes in cities now that have no concept of hunting pressure, but yet they certainly have no reason to move back out in the country.
So if you were a rancher would you stop all coyote hunting on your property? Knowing what you know! Would you be willing to let the coyotes have a few calves each year, because after all, they're just doing what they do when they kill and eat a calf, or three. OR would you rather make an attempt to reduce their numbers in hopes that instead of killing 3, they don't kill any calves?

One other thing, not all coyotes are calf killers, BUT once they start there's only one way to stop them. So again, if you're a rancher do you leave em alone until after you start finding dead half eatin' calves, or do you try to be pro-active and prevent the problem from starting? Or maybe you find a good source of rabbits and bring them in and release them, you know, in hopes that the coyote changes it's preferred food source. Sarcasm....

[TRnCO]

coyote population follows food source available, they don't adjust for any other reason. Killing them and them having larger litters is because fewer coyotes equals more food for the remaining coyotes. In other words, killing them doesn't make them adjust litter size, abundant food or lack of food has far more impact.

So now we are to believe that coyotes don't even kill calves. They probably don't kill antelope or deer fawns either.

[TRnCO]

several years ago I was back home in Kansas on a hunting trip. My brother, who hunts coyotes a lot, got a call from a farmer that had never allowed any coyote hunting on his land. It was calving season and the farmer had all his cattle brought in close to his house so that he could monitor them regularly. He had stepped out of his house on his way out to check them one last time before he went to bed and he heard a cow making a heck of a ruckus. He hurried out and in his headlights of his pickup he saw the coyotes scatter and he thankfully got there before they had killed the 3 day old calf. He took the calf in his house to doctor it and do his best to save it that night. When he went back out the next morning he found that the calves momma had been killed and partially eatin'. Now, I suppose those coyotes didn't kill that cow, it was weak and about to die anyways?

Plenty of farmers and ranchers have stories much like that one. Calves that were a few days old found nearly completely eatin' over night. If you think coyotes only clean up still borns amd don't kill healthy young calves, you really have no clue.

[Irving]

No one is saying that ranchers, or anyone else, shouldn't shoot coyotes. Of course ranchers should protect their heard. Shooting problem coyotes is ideal because it temporarily reduces the very local population and buys the calves time to grow up. All I'm saying is that hunting is not an effective form of coyote population control.

The most important part of this thread so far, and the part that is true, is that when the wolf population can sustain it, there should be a hunting season for them. It sounds like wolves do a much better job controlling the coyote population than we do (they actively seek out coyote dens, dig up their young, and kill them, whereas they are not that aggressive with each other), and wolves are much easier for us to control the population. Smart ranchers would welcome most wolves (as long as they aren't protected) since they'll keep coyotes down and wolf populations are easier to deal with.