Gonna be a mess - got an excuse to agitate

[Irving]

On the other hand, yes, sometimes the police make mistakes and it can be tragic. But why make it worse and wind up dead?

That's all well and good from a distance, but under what circumstances would a person ever be in where their door is getting kicked in and their first thought is, "Oh it must just be the police conducting a no-knock raid at the wrong address?"

We can statistically model (or arm chair quarter back) hypothetical situations until we're blue in the face, but the reality will never match. In order to properly respond to a no-knock at the wrong address, you'd have to retrain yourself to obediently prone out at the first sign of danger. Even though real home invasions are also statistically low, they are probably higher than botched police raids, so it wouldn't make sense to train yourself to properly deal with the lowest possibility scenario.

[hollohas]

That's all well and good from a distance, but under what circumstances would a person ever be in where their door is getting kicked in and their first thought is, "Oh it must just be the police conducting a no-knock raid at the wrong address?"

We can statistically model (or arm chair quarter back) hypothetical situations until we're blue in the face, but the reality will never match. In order to properly respond to a no-knock at the wrong address, you'd have to retrain yourself to obediently prone out at the first sign of danger. Even though real home invasions are also statistically low, they are probably higher than botched police raids, so it wouldn't make sense to train yourself to properly deal with the lowest possibility scenario.

Gonna have to agree with Irv here.

While this can be chalked up as a tragic accident, and I don't think any sort of murder charges are warranted...

...shooting at someone who just kicked in your door that can't immediately be positively identified as the police, especially if you're the type of person who doesn't expect a late night visit from the police, isn't an unreasonable response from an occupant. That's actually something that should be an expected and common response to a perceived home invasion.

Assuming they TRULY didn't know it was the police, the occupants didn't do anything wrong.

Likewise, the police shooting back at someone whom they believe to be a bad guy trying to kill them isn't unreasonable either and why I agree murder charges are inappropriate.

Should planning and Intel have been better? Probably. Are no-knock raids questionable? Probably. But the police DID think there were bad peeps in there, they were right to shoot back. They shouldn't stand there and take it anymore than the occupants should.

Sucks. But shit happens.

Edit to add:. I do think it's appropriate to fire whoever is ultimately responsible for no-knocks at the wrong house. Everyone involved, no. But whoever was in charge of the op, absolutely. That's a major f'up.

[William]

That's nothing more than an emotional rant against no-knock warrants. You may not like them, I may not like them, but saying they're "unconstitutional" is just your opinion and not the opinion of courts that've upheld them. Yes, they get abused occasionally. But they clearly serve a purpose in some circumstances and can be a valuable LE tool.

At any rate, saying "Kick down my door and you are a thug~!" and "And this is why we have AR-15's..." serves no purpose other than chest beating. It's also a near guaranteed way to get yourself killed should the police ever kick down your door. The probability of which, by the way, is probably statistically a 0% chance. Look...I don't want my door to get kicked down by anyone, including the police. But I don't engage in the kind of behavior where that might be a problem. On the other hand, yes, sometimes the police make mistakes and it can be tragic. But why make it worse and wind up dead?

No knock raids are a product of the war on drugs, which rationally hasn't had much of an effect. Eliminating no knock raids would be number one on my list of "police reforms". Of course the narrative no longer includes reasonable reforms.

[hollohas]

I can recall at least one case in which the homeowner shot at, and hit, police who no-knocked the wrong house. By some sort of miracle, the homeowner wasn't killed.

Charges against the homeowner were considered but never went through IIRC.

Sucks for the officer that got shot (he lived) but charges against that homeowner would have been inappropriate in that case too.

I'll try to dig up the story...

[BushMasterBoy]

I can recall at least one case in which the homeowner shot at, and hit, police who no-knocked the wrong house. By some sort of miracle, the homeowner wasn't killed.

Charges against the homeowner were considered but never went through IIRC.

Sucks for the officer that got shot (he lived) but charges against that homeowner would have been inappropriate in that case too.

I'll try to dig up the story...

https://www.odmp.org/officer/6727-po...franklin-house

[hollohas]

https://www.odmp.org/officer/6727-po...franklin-house

Nope. Not that one. That dude being barricaded sounds like maybe he WAS actually a bad guy...

Edit: hard to Google old stories right now...everything is coming up about Taylor...

[BushMasterBoy]

Nope. Not that one. That dude being barricaded sounds like maybe he WAS actually a bad guy...

The whole ODMP version is basically a big lie. Guy was asleep, they wanted his son. They ended up with a pipe used for smoking pot. They used a no knock for a pot pipe based on bad information. There was no barricade, drugs, etc.

[hollohas]

I can recall at least one case in which the homeowner shot at, and hit, police who no-knocked the wrong house. By some sort of miracle, the homeowner wasn't killed.

Charges against the homeowner were considered but never went through IIRC.

Sucks for the officer that got shot (he lived) but charges against that homeowner would have been inappropriate in that case too.

I'll try to dig up the story...

This is the one I was thinking of. Two officers were shot, not one as I remembered. Blurs the lines a bit regarding a true no-knock because technically they did knock before forcing entry at the wrong home.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ma...ng-house-raid/

[Bailey Guns]

I understand that. But does that training automatically default to "shoot first, ask questions later"? Do you automatically disregard almost all other training? Wouldn't it make sense if you're going to prepare for either scenario to prepare in a way that minimizes danger to you? Prepare your home. Technology is pretty amazing these days. Harden your bedroom. There are things that can be done that may buy you a few extra seconds to determine who it is in your home.

[BushMasterBoy]

Police defunded themselves to the tune of $12 million. Not chest beating. Short of terrorist building bombs, the "LAW" needs to stop kicking down doors. They got indicted, they paid damages, BECAUSE IT IS WRONG!