2021-11 Election Discussion

[Irving]

I just don't think people's willingness to use/abuse government provided services/funds correlates with how they vote.

[Firehaus]

I just don't think people's willingness to use/abuse government provided services/funds correlates with how they vote.

Depends on where they live. How many Inner city welfare recipients vote conservative?


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[FoxtArt]

Voting is not a linear algorithm. If it were, Howard Dean might be president if not for a HYAAAAAA

You'd be correct to say it's not the only reason to vote. But it certainly would be a contributing thought in voters minds. Does is sway the individual? Many times no. Many times, it may. There are probably not many voters that it would be a "single issue" for, but if they are politically moderate and getting free cash every month, they may be less inclined to worry about borrowing against their children's future than someone who isn't receiving "extra help" and slightly more inclined to vote for politicians that want to spend the treasury like a 16yo with a credit card.

[Irving]

Depends on where they live. How many Inner city welfare recipients vote conservative?


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Is that a free stuff thing, or a broader narrative of "only we care about you?" Perhaps the disengagement is the reason to keep voting one way more than the free stuff angle.

I guess I just wonder if that particular narrative actually exists in reality, or people just continue it because it's easy to think about and move on.

[XJ]

Vote all you want, it does not matter, the uniparty has already picked a winner in every race.

[theGinsue]

I just don't think people's willingness to use/abuse government provided services/funds correlates with how they vote.

I believe that perspective is naive.

I worked with 2 sisters a few years ago. One of the two was particularly vocal about her politics and her belief that the Dems are the only ones who care to give the "free stuff" to people in "need". She related how they and their mom got Food Stamps (EBT) as they were growing up and felt there should be no limitations on what products you could buy with that free money. She felt it was appropriate that those receiving EBT should be allowed to buy all of the steak and lobster (specifically discussed those two items) that they could afford since "they need some joy in their lives". I say get out and work for it and when you can afford it, then you an buy the steaks and lobster. I'm all for programs like WIC which strictly enforce what types of products it can be used for; all of it nutritious, wholesome food. I think EBT should be limited the same way.

There are plenty of people out there who WILL abuse the system as long as thy can. I have a neighbor couple who has 2 daughters (the husband is not the father of the 2 girls). They vote Democrat strongly and proudly every time (put up yard signs, etc. leaving no doubt who their preferred candidate(s) is/are). One of the 2 daughters is a crack whore. She's sold her body to get money for drugs repeatedly through the years. This has resulted in producing 4 kids all of whom went into grandmas care. Grandma, my neighbor, received thousands of taxpayer dollars every month for these kids. The 2 oldest kids, both boys, have had some really nice cars through the years. The oldest boy has had nicer/newer Cadillacs, and Lexus vehicles. The youngest of the boys still lives "at home" and has been in trouble with the law repeatedly through the years. He now has a minimum wage job yet he can afford to drive a very nice, slightly used yet still less than 5 year old Mercedes Benz. I can't afford to buy a Mercedes - at least not without having to sacrifice someplace else in my life. The boy totaled his first Mercedes a few months ago. After 2 months he's now driving another one. The money for these cars didn't come from grandma or grandad (she's a retired school teacher and he works janitorial for the school district). The money didn't come from any legitimate job this kid works at minimum wage. The money didn't come from a baby daddy since no one knows who they are. The money came from taxpayer funded government entitlement programs that are endorsed by the Democratic government servants they've helped elect into office. Gotta keep the government teat flowing with milk and honey so the Mercedes can keep getting purchased.

Maybe some day I'll relate my experience at a Safeway while I was in college. That's where I learned just how horribly broke the "free stuff" system actually is (remains so today).

My own son works slightly above minimum wage. He can't afford health insurance. Two years ago we went into the Obamacare health exchange system to get him insurance. We settled on something a couple of levels up from the bottom, but far from the top. He couldn't even afford the lowest option but I wanted to ensure he had something decent "just in case". I'm making the monthly payments of ~$250 for him to have this coverage since he can't afford it at all. "Affordable" health care my ass. But hey, the Democrats fixed the healthcare system for everyone; right?!

Keep being naive about how the programs get used and how folks are voting to ensure the programs continue. The more folks stay willfully ignorant about it the longer it gets to continue without reform to fix a broken system.

[FoxtArt]

Think of it this way too... a small family earning $40k, it is not impossible they were clearing $36,000 / year in government "assistance" during the pandemic, e.g. still currently. Which, as per my math, you'll realize is very real. I'm not shitting out an inflated number. That's the equivalent of a whole income earner.

Now, imagine one political party says "we want to give you a little more" and another political party says "we want to take it all away".

The one wanting to take it all away is the equivalent, mentally, of having to vote for someone that will permanently lay off 50% of the employment or income in your family. You never get it back.

How can anyone think that DOESNT factor into voting decisions? It would CERTAINLY be on your mind if you were considering halving your family income, simply for sake of a candidate you agree with on some other issue...

[00tec]

An old friend of mine currently gets over $1300 in EBT a month. 3 kids. He buys steak regularly (at least twice a week) and goes fishing at least 4 days a week on his console boat. He owns both next-gen game consoles from Sony and Microsoft and has large flat-screen TVs in every room of his house. He, his wife, and 2 of their kids all have the latest gen deluxe phones. He once showed up at my house in Obama shoes.

I'd say that it plays a part. He doesn't look at politics at all, but when ol' Sniffer was up, he rooted for that guy on the premise of getting another stimmy check

[Irving]

Anecdotal experiences are pretty powerful and I doubt I could put up an argument that would change minds. Fortunately, that's not what I'm trying to do. My anecdotal experience is that I don't know anyone personally that is actively abusing any system like that. Of course those people exist, but how many are there really? I bet I do actually know people like that, but just don't realize it because they aren't telling me.

People abusing the system is definitely a problem. I'm trying to ask if the story we tell ourselves is bigger than the reality though. There is obviously more to the story. I don't like talking about family at all. The current situation Ginsue's son is in sounds like he should be voting left and collecting checks. But, I can confidently assume he's not. So there must be something else besides "free" stuff that keeps people in that mind set. It just seems lazy to assume the equation is that simple, and being lazy leads to all kinds of other problems. From losing people from your political side, to not being able to convince/teach people to take care of themselves.

I'm getting side tracked. Of course those people exist, just like the loud political extremes exist. But they aren't MOST people, and aren't MOST of the problem.

[Gman]

I recall years ago that we were dangerously close to 50% of the population that was receiving more in benefits from the government than they were paying in.

After Covid, I would imagine we jumped over that mark by a fair margin.