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  1. #1
    Plinker
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    Default ATF and records retention

    Had no idea they collected all the records of stores or FFL's that had gone out of business.

    https://freebeacon.com/biden-adminis...n-on-firearms/

    The Biden administration in just the past year alone stockpiled the records of more than 54 million U.S. gun owners and is poised to drastically alter gun regulations to ensure that information on Americans who own firearms ultimately ends up in the federal government's hands, according to internal Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) documents obtained by the Washington Free Beacon.


    The ATF in fiscal year 2021 processed 54.7 million out-of-business records, according to an internal ATF document obtained by the Gun Owners of America, a firearms advocacy group, and provided exclusively to the Free Beacon. When a licensed gun store goes out of business, its private records detailing gun transactions become ATF property and are stored at a federal site in West Virginia. This practice allows the federal government to stockpile scores of gun records and has drawn outrage from gun advocacy groups that say the government is using this information to create a national database of gun owners?which has long been prohibited under U.S. law.




    The ATF obtained 53.8 million paper records and another 887,000 electronic records, according to the internal document that outlines ATF actions in fiscal year 2021. Gun activists described this figure as worryingly high and said it contributes to fears that the Biden administration is trying to keep track of all Americans who own firearms, in violation of federal statutes. The procurement of these records by the ATF comes as the Biden administration moves to alter current laws to ensure that gun records are stored in perpetuity. Currently, gun shops can destroy their records after 20 years, thereby preventing the ATF from accessing the information in the future.


    "As if the addition of over 50 million records to an ATF gun registry wasn't unconstitutional or illegal enough, the Biden administration's misuse of ?out-of-business' records doesn't end there," Aidan Johnston, the Gun Owners of America's director of federal affairs, told the Free Beacon. "Instead of maintaining the right of [licensed firearm dealers] to destroy Firearm Transaction Records after 20 years, buried within Biden's proposed regulations is a provision that would mean every single Firearm Transaction Record going forward would eventually be sent to ATF's registry in West Virginia."


    The ATF's registry site has long been a battleground between gun advocates and the federal government. Those in favor of more restrictive gun measures want the ATF to digitize this registry and create a federal database of U.S. gun owners, a move opposed by groups such as the Gun Owners of America and the National Rifle Association. The ATF has so many records stored in its West Virginia site that several years ago the floor collapsed, according to the New York Times.


    An ATF spokesman declined to comment on internal agency records but told the Free Beacon that the agency's "National Tracing Center processes millions of out of business records each month." However, "those out of business records do not constitute an initiation or continuation of any federal gun registry," the spokesman said.




    The Gun Control Act of 1968 mandates that licensed firearm dealers that go out of business provide the ATF with their records. They are then processed into images, though the ATF maintains this database cannot be searched by a purchaser's name. Physical records, the agency says, are then destroyed.


    The record-keeping issue has received new scrutiny as the Biden administration readies to implement several new restrictions on firearms and owners, including a proposed ban on anywhere from 10 to 40 million pistol braces, which are used as stabilizers on popular weapons such as AR-15s. Under these guidelines, gun owners would be ordered to register or destroy these pistol braces.


    The ATF's proposed regulations would also require gun parts to be regulated with background checks, meaning that if an individual assembled a legal homemade gun, he may be forced to submit to up to 16 different background checks.


    Gun advocates, including the Gun Owners of America, accuse the Biden administration of abusing the rule-making process to ensure these regulations are put into effect in record time, possibly before the end of the year.




    "The Biden administration has forced ATF to undertake the rule-making process in record time?resulting in faulty argumentation and demonstrating that neither ATF nor Biden's anti-gun appointees know anything about the firearms and accessories they seek to regulate," said Johnston.


    The ATF, through its spokesman, maintained that its rule-making process allows for gun advocates, experts, and others to offer comment on proposed regulations well before they go into effect. "Congress and the Government Accountability Office have an opportunity to review any final rule prior to its effective date," the spokesman said. "The process is anything but ?speedy.'"

  2. #2
    Zombie Slayer
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    These guys have better records.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
    Per Ardua ad Astra

  3. #3
    Grand Master Know It All SouthPaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callerys View Post
    Had no idea they collected all the records of stores or FFL's that had gone out of business.
    Just out of curiosity, where did you think they went after an FFL closed? No sarcasm, just curious what your thoughts were.
    "But when it's time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark; and brother, it's startin' to rain."

  4. #4
    Plinker
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthPaw View Post
    Just out of curiosity, where did you think they went after an FFL closed? No sarcasm, just curious what your thoughts were.
    The Gun Control Act of 1968 mandates that licensed firearm dealers that go out of business provide the ATF with their records.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Know It All eddiememphis's Avatar
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    This has always concerned me. I bought more than one gun from Dave's Guns twenty years ago. When he quit, all the records that should have been destroyed by now are held by the ATF, likely scanned into a database. They claim not to add one's name, but why scan them if not to be able to trace them?

    Yet another reason I hate being forced into background checks between individuals.

    It would be very easy to turn all that info into a registration database. That information will be used to deny gun owners things like insurance and banking services, possibly jobs as well. It will be used as a factor in your personal credit score, much like a financial credit score but based on things like gun ownership, voting affiliation, actions on climate and the like.

    Big Brother is not only watching, he is primed to pounce on whoever is deemed unworthy.

  6. #6
    "Beef Bacon" Commie Grant H.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddiememphis View Post
    This has always concerned me. I bought more than one gun from Dave's Guns twenty years ago. When he quit, all the records that should have been destroyed by now are held by the ATF, likely scanned into a database. They claim not to add one's name, but why scan them if not to be able to trace them?

    Yet another reason I hate being forced into background checks between individuals.

    It would be very easy to turn all that info into a registration database. That information will be used to deny gun owners things like insurance and banking services, possibly jobs as well. It will be used as a factor in your personal credit score, much like a financial credit score but based on things like gun ownership, voting affiliation, actions on climate and the like.

    Big Brother is not only watching, he is primed to pounce on whoever is deemed unworthy.
    4473's are just a small part of that potential "scary" scenario...

    CCW's
    Hunting Licenses
    Hunters Safety
    Card purchases of ammo
    Card purchases of gun parts
    Card purchases of reloading anything
    Your internet traffic to this or any other gun site
    Your driving to a gun range with your cell phone in your pocket
    Your driving to a gun range with your Cell/GPS enabled vehicle

    Etc.

    The data mining and tracking of people that occurs at all times is so much more invasive than 99.99999% of people realize. When they decide it's time to collect up the guns, 4473's might be the easy place to start, but that's FAR from the list they will be working off of.
    Last edited by Grant H.; 11-08-2021 at 15:43.
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  7. #7
    Grand Master Know It All eddiememphis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant H. View Post
    4473's are just a small part of that potential "scary" scenario...

    CCW's
    Hunting Licenses
    Hunters Safety
    Card purchases of ammo
    Card purchases of gun parts
    Card purchases of reloading anything
    Your internet traffic to this or any other gun site
    Your driving to a gun range with your cell phone in your pocket
    Your driving to a gun range with your Cell/GPS enabled vehicle

    Etc.

    The data mining and tracking of people that occurs at all times is so much more invasive than 99.99999% of people realize. When they decide it's time to collect up the guns, 4473's might be the easy place to start, but that's FAR from the list they will be working off of.
    AI will make consolidating all this info child's play. It will all go on your social credit score.

  8. #8
    Fleeing Idaho to get IKEA Bailey Guns's Avatar
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    The GOA is just now realizing this is a big deal? That's pretty disturbing in itself.

    But, there's another side to this. When I closed up after 10 years in business I sent my records, as required, to the out of business records center. Roughly 5 YEARS later I got a call, at my house, from the AFT wanting to do a trace. 5. Freakin'. Years. They guy who called me claimed the AFT didn't even know I was out of business. And that's after a compliance agent called me approximately 3 years after I closed the shop wanting to schedule an inspection. In the 10 years I had the FFL I never heard from the AFT except for an occasional trace. There's no telling where all my records ended up.
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  9. #9
    Machine Gunner Alpha2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailey Guns View Post
    The GOA is just now realizing this is a big deal? That's pretty disturbing in itself.

    But, there's another side to this. When I closed up after 10 years in business I sent my records, as required, to the out of business records center. Roughly 5 YEARS later I got a call, at my house, from the AFT wanting to do a trace. 5. Freakin'. Years. They guy who called me claimed the AFT didn't even know I was out of business. And that's after a compliance agent called me approximately 3 years after I closed the shop wanting to schedule an inspection. In the 10 years I had the FFL I never heard from the AFT except for an occasional trace. There's no telling where all my records ended up.
    When I got my FFL, the examiner told me they had an enormous warehouse, like the one in Raiders of the Lost Ark, (when they brought the ark, in a wooden crate, to some dark dusty aisle and left it). That's where the records go when you close business. He told me they were decades behind in transferring the records, mostly because they didn't have the people or funds to do it. He said to add to that, the fact that many if not most of the handwritten records were unreadable.

    All of that is easy to believe.

    One more thing, the FFL can shit-can records after 20 years or so, I don't know that the ATF has to. Could be wrong.

    Jeff
    Last edited by Alpha2; 11-08-2021 at 16:48.

  10. #10
    The "Godfather" of COAR Great-Kazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha2 View Post
    When I got my FFL, the examiner told me they had an enormous warehouse, like the one in Raiders of the Lost Ark, (when they brought the ark, in a wooden crate, to some dark dusty aisle and left it). That's where the records go when you close business. He told me they were decades behind in transferring the records, mostly because they didn't have the people or funds to do it. He said to add to that, the fact that many if not most of the handwritten records were unreadable.

    All of that is easy to believe.

    One more thing, the FFL can shit-can records after 20 years or so, I don't know that the ATF has to. Could be wrong.

    Jeff
    They stay in a dusty warehouse, till someone sends the new guy in to scan, then transfer, them to a digital site
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