Alleged imminent ATF raid on private owners tommorow.

[FoxtArt]

People mistake my position as one that I disagree with the product.

Courts do not operate on written law. Thus, loopholes do not exist, because loopholes only exist in written law. Someone proclaiming "but it's not technically illegal" has not seen how the system operates.

Any litigation attorney / paralegal will mostly tell you the same:

Courts operate merely on the whim of their judges, justified in the impression of some semblance of procedure.

So when someone makes a business card that can be broken down to make lightning links, or someone makes a trigger that will make a gun go BRRRRRRRRRT, sure, they aren't technically illegal under plain text doctrine.

But judges don't give a shit. Any position they want to take, they can justify, so is the state of our courts. Things like this operate more about the intent of the law than any language of the law, and that's what makes this get sideways. Anyone arguing "PFFFT IT ISN"T ILLEGAL" - well, neither were Atkins accelerators, or slide fires, or rubber bands for f's sake.

When ftards make a business and think "it's not technically illegal" and make a device that goes BRRRRRRRRT, what happens is then a judge will absolutely come down on that because they only care about the intent of the regulations/laws. If it sounds like it is fully automatic, they will treat it like it is, regardless of what loophole the given idiot thinks is a monopoly card. And devices like this, so openly advocating "they are legal" with all sorts of BRRRRRT video is begging the ATF to address it post-haste.

The end result, is then the decisions that get handed down also burn everybody in proximity. Things like binary triggers, etc., stuff that was not questionable or marginal, didn't have narcissists launching fireworks at the ATF for attention, they often then get axed too.

It is a bigger picture. When companies don't try to fly below the radar (like Binaries, etc.) and they advertise how much their stuff makes it fully-automatic "but it technically isn't so we can sell it to anyone!", uh, what country have you guys been living in where that business plan has any semblance of intelligence?

And it's not like I'm wrong, because yeah, this is after the fact?

[Bailey Guns]

That's all fine and dandy. But no court or judge has ordered the ATF to, 1) find these items are machineguns and, 2) ordered the ATF to start confiscating property of US citizens without due process.

The ATF is acting unilaterally as far as anyone can tell. I don't care how you try to justify their behavior, it simply isn't in accordance with US law.

[Great-Kazoo]

That's all fine and dandy. But no court or judge has ordered the ATF to, 1) find these items are machineguns and, 2) ordered the ATF to start confiscating property of US citizens without due process.

The ATF is acting unilaterally as far as anyone can tell. I don't care how you try to justify their behavior, it simply isn't in accordance with US law.

Correct. There is no law, the atf can fall back on regarding their abuse .

[Grant H.]

The ATF is acting unilaterally as far as anyone can tell. I don't care how you try to justify their behavior, it simply isn't in accordance with US law.

I call BS...

They aren't going down this path without the support and backing of Uncle Joey and the DOJ.

Is it legal, by the definition of the law? Nope, but much like your signature, if you don't want the ATF to make an example out of you, don't make a device that imitates FA and flaunt it...

RDIAS
Lightning Links
Bump stocks
Blah blah blah...

NONE of those fit the definition of a Firearm, and yet they are highly controlled or illegal as a "machine gun"... The courts have never once taken umbrage with that stance... Why would they start with this latest example?

[MrPrena]

That's all fine and dandy. But no court or judge has ordered the ATF to, 1) find these items are machineguns and, 2) ordered the ATF to start confiscating property of US citizens without due process.

The ATF is acting unilaterally as far as anyone can tell. I don't care how you try to justify their behavior, it simply isn't in accordance with US law.

I call BS...

They aren't going down this path without the support and backing of Uncle Joey and the DOJ.

Is it legal, by the definition of the law? Nope, but much like your signature, if you don't want the ATF to make an example out of you, don't make a device that imitates FA and flaunt it...

RDIAS
Lightning Links
Bump stocks
Blah blah blah...

NONE of those fit the definition of a Firearm, and yet they are highly controlled or illegal as a "machine gun"... The courts have never once taken umbrage with that stance... Why would they start with this latest example?

Gotta agree on both highlighted part.
ATF was starting to do this on their own around last year of Trump admin. That would most likely without a backing of doj at that time.

Now, it is most likely that they have a backing of doj and wh.

[Grant H.]

Gotta agree on both highlighted part.
ATF was starting to do this on their own around last year of Trump admin. That would most likely without a backing of doj at that time.

Now, it is most likely that they have a backing of doj and wh.

The ATF was acting at the direction of Trump and his DOJ when they went after the Bump stocks...

[Bailey Guns]

The ATF was acting at the direction of Trump and his DOJ when they went after the Bump stocks...

The process was not the same. Under Trump they at least gave the illusion of due process. They had hearings, comment periods, wrote a regulation, etc. Then they did what they wanted anyway.

That isn't happening here. They've flat out said these devices meet the definition of "machine gun" - which is a lie, lied about how they operate in court by saying they fire more than one round with a single trigger pull, and sent out a directive to start confiscating property. Apples and oranges.

The result might be the same and I suppose that's all that matters in the end. But the processes for each aren't comparable.

[Bailey Guns]

The ATF is acting unilaterally as far as anyone can tell.

I call BS...

That's BS? OK. Show me it's BS. Prove to me the WH or DOJ is behind this.

DOJ maybe...but if so they sure are being quiet about it. Rare Breed stood up to the ATF on specific, valid, legal grounds. And, much like FoxtArt said, so far the courts could give a shit about legal. Personally, I think that's what's behind this. The peasants dared to speak out and challenge the authority of the ATF. An organization that doesn't even have a director and hasn't had one for some time. And now the ATF is gonna pound their asses into the dirt because they know they can, legally and justifiably or not. They know they don't need anyone's permission...especially under this administration.

Frankly I think the WH is grateful for this distraction. They've made such a cluster fuck of everything they've touched: they've been shown to be illegally transporting illegal aliens around the country and lying about it to the point even those on their side are starting to blow the whistle, they're on the brink of war with Putin, inflation is running rampant, the middle class is being priced out of a sustainable lifestyle, there's revolt in their own party...and on and on and on. Yeah..."Let the ATF ruin a few lives and give us a little breathing room" is probably what the WH is thinking right now.

[FoxtArt]

Yet again, not justifying their behavior.

There's a lot of guys serving prison sentences constantly yelling about how their imprisonment is not in accordance with US law and/or they didn't break the law.

And many of them are not wrong.

I am, I suppose, much more pragmatic than idealistic. I'd love it to be the way you guys suggest, but it simply isn't.

It shouldn't be, but it is.

Things like the ATF are like a freakin' 500 pound, hundred-year old, pissed off, shit covered gorilla living a bedroom. While it would be awesome if it could become civilized and trained, and eat at the dinner table, who are we kidding? You don't try to dress it up in yoga pants and give it a fork, you just keep far away and hope it eventually croaks.

[Eric P]

And they gave purchasers an opportunity to destroy or turnover the device with no harm except money flushed.