Ukraine - Take two

[BushMasterBoy]

Russians are killing people in the village of Bucha who are obviously civilians. Many are shot in the back of their head while their hands are tied. Bodies are just left to rot in the street.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/03/europ...ntl/index.html

[Great-Kazoo]

Russians are killing people in the village of Bucha who are obviously civilians. Many are shot in the back of their head while their hands are tied. Bodies are just left to rot in the street.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/03/europ...ntl/index.html

Did they do it, that's the question.

While i would not put it past them to do so. It seems too convenient, that this happened.

[Aloha_Shooter]

Did they do it, that's the question.

While i would not put it past them to do so. It seems too convenient, that this happened.

It's consistent with behavior from the Russian Army going back decades and I can't see the Ukrainians doing this to their own people, especially when they are winning the propaganda war without false flag atrocities. Consistent, not convenient.

[<MADDOG>]

...especially when they are winning the propaganda war without false flag atrocities..

T72's going turtle, Chechens yelling "alla snackbar", fine girls with brand new camo on twitter stating "death to orcs", and the PM of Britain walking around Kiev with Zelenskyy waving to people who aren't there...

Let us say they are losing the "propaganda" war on twitter, but what are the Russian objectives?

I do not think the Russians are "losing" per say. I think what we "see" says they are, and the majority of Americans do not understand what the Russian objective is...

My $.02

[Aloha_Shooter]

T72's going turtle, Chechens yelling "alla snackbar", fine girls with brand new camo on twitter stating "death to orcs", and the PM of Britain walking around Kiev with Zelenskyy waving to people who aren't there...

Let us say they are losing the "propaganda" war on twitter, but what are the Russian objectives?

I do not think the Russians are "losing" per say. I think what we "see" says they are, and the majority of Americans do not understand what the Russian objective is...

My $.02

1. I did say the propaganda war. Propaganda is the ONLY reason to do a false flag operation and just makes no sense in this particular case.
2. The Russian objective pretty clearly seems to have been to take Kyiv so they could install a new puppet government in roughly 3 days, no more than a week because their logistics only supported 4-5 days of operations. They have pretty clearly failed in that objective.
3. I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a text-based bulletin board) if you have an idea of what a Russian objective might have been that involves losing as many senior commanders and tanks as they have and that stretches combat operations out for over month but still means they are winning. They might still win this out since the Ukrainian reserves must be stretched pretty thin but the very fact that Ukraine is still standing as an independent country at this point in time suggests Russia is losing this big time.

[Martinjmpr]

1. I did say the propaganda war. Propaganda is the ONLY reason to do a false flag operation and just makes no sense in this particular case.
2. The Russian objective pretty clearly seems to have been to take Kyiv so they could install a new puppet government in roughly 3 days, no more than a week because their logistics only supported 4-5 days of operations. They have pretty clearly failed in that objective.
3. I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a text-based bulletin board) if you have an idea of what a Russian objective might have been that involves losing as many senior commanders and tanks as they have and that stretches combat operations out for over month but still means they are winning. They might still win this out since the Ukrainian reserves must be stretched pretty thin but the very fact that Ukraine is still standing as an independent country at this point in time suggests Russia is losing this big time.

I think Russia achieves its overall strategic objective if Ukraine is beaten bloody to the point where they don't even consider joining NATO and have a more-or-less compliant government that is willing to do Russia's bidding.

EDITED TO ADD: And Ukraine's beating down also serves as a warning to any other smaller, vulnerable nations that might want to try and shore up an alliance with NATO. The not-so-subtle message being: You can't count on NATO to save you so you better do what we want. I'm thinking of Moldova and possibly Belarus (although AFAIK Belarus is a near-dictatorship run by a Putin-loving leader, to the extent that Belarusian units have been participating in the Ukraine invasion. But that might not always be the case.)

However I would also say that level of resolve is personal to Putin himself. After he shuffles off this mortal coil, Ukraine could throw its hand in with NATO, on the premise that the new ruler of Russia isn't likely to be as emotionally invested in beating down Ukraine as Putin was.