Ukraine - Take two

[Aloha_Shooter]

Did they do it, that's the question.

While i would not put it past them to do so. It seems too convenient, that this happened.

It's consistent with behavior from the Russian Army going back decades and I can't see the Ukrainians doing this to their own people, especially when they are winning the propaganda war without false flag atrocities. Consistent, not convenient.

[FoxtArt]

It is even confirmed with satellite telemetry. The bodies were there with the russians. Russians moved out, bodies photographed correlate with locations on telemetry. But nevertheless, some gravitate towards believing the virtually impossible / fabricate conspiracies instead of having to acknowledge that both sides of the isle could actually agree on something.

[<MADDOG>]

...especially when they are winning the propaganda war without false flag atrocities..

T72's going turtle, Chechens yelling "alla snackbar", fine girls with brand new camo on twitter stating "death to orcs", and the PM of Britain walking around Kiev with Zelenskyy waving to people who aren't there...

Let us say they are losing the "propaganda" war on twitter, but what are the Russian objectives?

I do not think the Russians are "losing" per say. I think what we "see" says they are, and the majority of Americans do not understand what the Russian objective is...

My $.02

[BushMasterBoy]

My two cents is this war is for the military-industrial complex to use new weapons and tactics in a real life scenario. Some of the high tech small weapons such as the "Switchblade" are producing impressive results. The latest news is that the Rus are bringing out the "retired reserve" to help replace the conscripted losses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVironment_Switchblade

[Aloha_Shooter]

T72's going turtle, Chechens yelling "alla snackbar", fine girls with brand new camo on twitter stating "death to orcs", and the PM of Britain walking around Kiev with Zelenskyy waving to people who aren't there...

Let us say they are losing the "propaganda" war on twitter, but what are the Russian objectives?

I do not think the Russians are "losing" per say. I think what we "see" says they are, and the majority of Americans do not understand what the Russian objective is...

My $.02

1. I did say the propaganda war. Propaganda is the ONLY reason to do a false flag operation and just makes no sense in this particular case.
2. The Russian objective pretty clearly seems to have been to take Kyiv so they could install a new puppet government in roughly 3 days, no more than a week because their logistics only supported 4-5 days of operations. They have pretty clearly failed in that objective.
3. I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a text-based bulletin board) if you have an idea of what a Russian objective might have been that involves losing as many senior commanders and tanks as they have and that stretches combat operations out for over month but still means they are winning. They might still win this out since the Ukrainian reserves must be stretched pretty thin but the very fact that Ukraine is still standing as an independent country at this point in time suggests Russia is losing this big time.

[Mtneer]

Wolverines!!

https://www.military.com/off-duty/mo...-fighters.html

[Martinjmpr]

1. I did say the propaganda war. Propaganda is the ONLY reason to do a false flag operation and just makes no sense in this particular case.
2. The Russian objective pretty clearly seems to have been to take Kyiv so they could install a new puppet government in roughly 3 days, no more than a week because their logistics only supported 4-5 days of operations. They have pretty clearly failed in that objective.
3. I'm all ears (or eyes since this is a text-based bulletin board) if you have an idea of what a Russian objective might have been that involves losing as many senior commanders and tanks as they have and that stretches combat operations out for over month but still means they are winning. They might still win this out since the Ukrainian reserves must be stretched pretty thin but the very fact that Ukraine is still standing as an independent country at this point in time suggests Russia is losing this big time.

I think Russia achieves its overall strategic objective if Ukraine is beaten bloody to the point where they don't even consider joining NATO and have a more-or-less compliant government that is willing to do Russia's bidding.

EDITED TO ADD: And Ukraine's beating down also serves as a warning to any other smaller, vulnerable nations that might want to try and shore up an alliance with NATO. The not-so-subtle message being: You can't count on NATO to save you so you better do what we want. I'm thinking of Moldova and possibly Belarus (although AFAIK Belarus is a near-dictatorship run by a Putin-loving leader, to the extent that Belarusian units have been participating in the Ukraine invasion. But that might not always be the case.)

However I would also say that level of resolve is personal to Putin himself. After he shuffles off this mortal coil, Ukraine could throw its hand in with NATO, on the premise that the new ruler of Russia isn't likely to be as emotionally invested in beating down Ukraine as Putin was.

[Martinjmpr]

Continuing my thought: Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - the "Baltic Republics" that were once a very important part of Russia's "buffer" against the West - are now in NATO, as are Poland and Hungary.

So, as much of an asshole as Putin is, he doesn't seem to be willing to cross the NATO line.

[Aloha_Shooter]

"Ukraine's beating down" ???? You mean how he lost about a quarter of his total armored forces and nearly 22,000 troops so far? You say they achieve their strategic objective if Ukraine doesn't even consider joining NATO but they offered that early in the attack and Russia persisted. It's pretty clear to me and others that their strategic objective was to take Kyiv and install a puppet government like they have in Belarus. They have failed to do that despite 2 months of "military action". If you look at the logistics the Russian forces had lined up, they had very clearly thought they'd be in Kyiv in 2-3 days, 5 on the outside.

This "beat down" you reference has Sweden and Switzerland openly and seriously considering joining NATO -- something that wasn't even a theoretical possibility 3 months ago.

It's one thing to question how much risk or expense America should take in supporting Ukraine. The fact they are even raising the threat of nuclear weapons shows how desperate they are regardless of whether you take their threat seriously. It's a whole other thing (and frankly delusional in my opinion) to claim the Russians aren't losing given the losses they have suffered so far.

[FoxtArt]

I like those observations. That would be logical, most likely, and what someone of sound mind would conclude.

But as the saying goes, find all possibilities, eliminate the most likely, and what remains utterly impossible is probably true. So, it's probably Pfizer that started the war, honestly. To distract everyone from bad press so they won't notice the next vaccine they are delivering has a chip that'll send everyone's thoughts to Google for improved product ads.

It's not like the Russians have been trying to cram propaganda down captured Ukrainians gullets to the effect that "Ukraine never existed, it was always Russia". And it's not like they have plans to take over Maldova. We don't know what they are doing, the Russians probably have the worlds best interests at heart and simply want to kill Nazi's and bring the world into balance out of the goodness of their little, blessed, commie hearts.