Two general gun law questions

[Irving]

I've got two questions I've been curious about, just for curiosity sake. They are completely unrelated.

1) If you build an AR pistol, technically, you could legally have a round chambered while you have it in your car right? The no round chambered law is actually a DOW statute that only applies to long guns and is to prevent people from hunting from their cars right? I hear that if you are in a wheelchair, you can get permission to actually hunt from your vehicle though.

1a) When people build pistols, they always have that maglite looking "stock" sticking out of the back. I assume that is there just to plug the hole that would otherwise be above the pistol grip right? I also assume that those are made as long as legally possible and people just use that as a sort of short "stock" just because they can? Does anyone make just a small plug so it is more like a pistol?


Now, totally unrelated:

2) Once you get your FFL, can you ever sell a gun privately again? For example, let's say you obtain your FFL and sell some product out of your house, but don't have a brick and mortar set up or anything. Would you be allowed to sell your own private pistol to someone who is over 18 but under 21? As we all know, you must be 21 to purchase a pistol from an FFL, but the legal age to own/purchase a pistol is actually 18. So that leaves a 20 year old to buying a pistol from a private sellers. So, if you have an FFL at all, are you now exempt from selling something privately?

My knee jerk response is that an FFL can legally sell his privately owned items in a private sale just as easily as a car dealer could sell his privately owned vehicle. However, a smart FFL would avoid selling one of his pistols to someone under 21 just because there is too much risk of getting dragged through the mud for it later if something bad happened. The judge might even quote Spider Man and tell you that "With great power, comes great responsibility."


Just curious.

[newracer]

1. Yes
1a. That is the buffer tube, cannot make it shorter. Technically if someone saw you using it as a stock it would be illegal.

[Irving]

1a) Oh right, that has to do with the gas system and the bolt moving around right? Thanks. I don't see how it would be illegal to use the buffer tube as a stock any more than it'd be illegal to try and hold my handgun into my shoulder and shoot it. <-- I laugh just thinking about trying that.

[Bailey Guns]

Since the AR question was answered, I'll try the other one.

I don't think there's anything that would prohibit an FFL from selling a privately owned gun. The exception is, if the FFL is in your name (as opposed to a corporate FFL) and you have a gun on your books you can transfer it to yourself.

Example:

• I'm a kitchen table FFL and order a gun from Acme Guns. It's shipped to my licensed premises. I must log the gun into my bound book. I can then log the gun out to myself (since the FFL is in my name) with the proper notation in the bound book such as: Transferred to owner's private collection. No background check is required. Now that I've transferred the gun I must wait at least one year before selling it as a private sale.
• I'm a gun dealer but my license is set up under a corporation such as an S-Corp. I buy a gun from Acme distributors and it's shipped to my gun store. Even though I'm the owner of the corporation I must complete a 4473 and a NICS check prior to transferring the gun to my private collection. However, once I do that then the private sale rules apply.

I'm pretty sure that's how those 2 scenarios would work. However, under either circumstance I still wouldn't transfer the handgun to anyone under 21. That's just me. Some will agree with that and others will not. That's OK.

Maybe a current dealer can correct this if I'm not correct with the above two scenarios.

[Circuits]

2) Once you get your FFL, can you ever sell a gun privately again? For example, let's say you obtain your FFL and sell some product out of your house, but don't have a brick and mortar set up or anything. Would you be allowed to sell your own private pistol to someone who is over 18 but under 21? As we all know, you must be 21 to purchase a pistol from an FFL, but the legal age to own/purchase a pistol is actually 18. So that leaves a 20 year old to buying a pistol from a private sellers. So, if you have an FFL at all, are you now exempt from selling something privately?

My knee jerk response is that an FFL can legally sell his privately owned items in a private sale just as easily as a car dealer could sell his privately owned vehicle. However, a smart FFL would avoid selling one of his pistols to someone under 21 just because there is too much risk of getting dragged through the mud for it later if something bad happened. The judge might even quote Spider Man and tell you that "With great power, comes great responsibility."


Just curious.

Not "just as easily", but you can still do private sales. The differences are that in addition to making reasonably sure the person is not prohibited, you are required to record the name and address of the person you sold it to in your bound book. This applies to personal firearms only, not your business inventory.

Personal firearms for this purpose are those firearms you acquired before you obtained your current FFL, and those obtained by you since getting your FFL, but which you have logged out of your bound book into your personal collection. Firearms must have been logged out of your book for at least one year before you may legally sell them privately.

Private, personal firearms sales do not require a 4473.

In this state, an FFL can sell/gift a personal handgun, in a private transaction to someone >=18 but <21 years of age.

[Irving]

EDIT: Thanks for the clear answer as well Circuits.


I feel pretty much that same as you. I think the only time I might consider selling a handgun (as a private sale) to someone under 21, would have to be someone in my family. There aren't anyone of age in my family and I don't have any guns I'm willing to let go of anyway so it probably won't be much of an issue.

So let me get this straight, if you are an FFL, all firearms obtained using your FFL must be logged into your bound book? Also, any firearm you obtain using your FFL, that are transferred to yourself as an individual, you can't sell for more than a year (giving it adequate time to become "used" and lessen any profit you'll make on the sale). That sounds totally reasonable and was something I didn't think of.

So, if you have the FFL in your name as an individual or individual + DBA, you can transfer the firearm directly to yourself without a background check. Alternately, if you set the FFL up as a corp, then even though you own the corp, you still have to go through the back ground check stuff? That also makes sense. When you say the regular private sale rules apply at the end of your second bullet there, are you saying that once you transfer a firearm from your corp, to yourself as an individual, you still have to wait one year to sell the firearm because you are connected to a currently registered FFL?

Great info.

[MuzzleFlash]

Circuits nailed it for sole proprietor FFLs.

If you own an incorporated business - even a single member LLC, and the business has the FFL, then you are no different than some guy off the street when it comes to the transfer process. Your name may be on the license as a responsible party, but the law makes you run a NICS check on yourself - something you wouldn't need to do as an individual FFL. Funny that you can check the gun out of inventory at will, but you can't transfer permanent possession without a NICS.

I guy could go positively schizo filling out the 4473.

[Circuits]

When you say the regular private sale rules apply at the end of your second bullet there, are you saying that once you transfer a firearm from your corp, to yourself as an individual, you still have to wait one year to sell the firearm because you are connected to a currently registered FFL?

For a corp FFL, you don't have to wait a year - you've already gone through the NICS check, so your personal stuff is distinct from your business stuff.

[BPTactical]

For a corp FFL, you don't have to wait a year - you've already gone through the NICS check, so your personal stuff is distinct from your business stuff.

Sec. 478.125a Personal firearms collection.

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed
manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to
comply with the provisions of Sec. 478.102 or record on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a
firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms
collection: Provided, That
(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such
collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the
business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as
a personal firearm,
(2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by Sec.
478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or
other acquisition,
(3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound
record prescribed by Sec. 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred
from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or
otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and
(4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm
from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the
format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by
recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model,
serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of
the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee,
or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a
licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a
licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other
than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in
commercial transactions (e.g., a drivers license). The format required
for the disposition record of personal firearms is as follows:

[[Page 76]]



Disposition Record of Personal Firearms
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description of firearm Disposition
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name and
address
Manufacturer and/ Model Serial No. Type Caliber or Date (business Date of birth if
or importer gauge address if nonlicensee
licensee)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(b) Any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer
selling or otherwise disposing of a firearm from the licensee's personal
firearms collection under this section shall be subject to the
restrictions imposed by the Act and this part on the dispositions of
firearms by persons other than licensed manufacturers, licensed
importers, and licensed dealers.


What if the dealer purchases a firearm outside of their FFL name strictly for personal use? Normal over the counter firearm transaction with 4473 and NICS check.
What rules then apply?

[Circuits]

What if the dealer purchases a firearm outside of their FFL name strictly for personal use? Normal over the counter firearm transaction with 4473 and NICS check.
What rules then apply?

that's a gray area. I record such guns straight to my personal book, but would not sell them in a private transaction if it had been there less than a year.