Your "Go to home defense SHTF firearm!

[rondog]

Mine is a compact 1911, my everyday carry piece. I have lots of other guns that would be better suited for h/d, but the wife won't tolerate loaded guns where she might see them or the stupid grandkid or his stupid friends might find them and screw with them.

What I would prefer to keep handy would be my M1 carbine. I feel those are one of the most perfect defensive weapons ever made.

[Irving]

It's driving me crazy how many people think that you don't need to aim a shotgun.

[Bailey Guns]

There is some serious "mall ninja" mentality being displayed in this thread.

I agreee about the "aim a shotgun in the general direction" and the ".223 penetrates more than a 9mm/.45ACP/too much for indoor use" myths. It's extremely annoying to see that on a forum where you'd think people would know better.

[iamhunter]

There is some serious "mall ninja" mentality being displayed in this thread.

I agreee about the "aim a shotgun in the general direction" and the ".223 penetrates more than a 9mm/.45ACP/too much for indoor use" myths. It's extremely annoying to see that on a forum where you'd think people would know better.

See, I thought this was a forum of like-minded enthusiasts who could have intelligent, civilized discussion. But I guess attacking people's opinions and calling them "Mall Ninjas" is a better way to promote community.

Obviously I didn't think that a knowledgeable gunman would take my claim as shooting in the "general direction" at face value. What I really meant is you can afford to be LESS PRECISE with your aim (which is a common occurence under stress)

But since you seem to more of a facts oriented guy, let's present some of those.

At a distance of 5 feet or under, a 18" barreled 12 gauge shot gun (using 00 buckshot) will provide a 2" spread, carrying the wadding into the wound with the pellets, and creating a solid 2" hole.

As distance increases to 10 feet, your looking at a 4" hole,

at distances greater than 20 feet, you no longer had a solid hole and instead have a spread of pellets 9"-12", creating a still incapacitating and quite probably fatal injury, and no chance of wall penetration.

So, just using straight statistics, as compared to .223

@ <5 feet, you have a 450&#37; greater allowed margin of aiming error

@ <10 feet this increases to 900%

and @ >20 feet this increases to 2500%

As compared to .45 ACP these numbers are 225%, 450%, and 1250% respectively.

If you would like to reproduce these numbers on your own to test for accuracy,
Now you may argue that these percentages represent only inches in real life, but when shot placement counts, those inches could make the difference between life or death.


And as for penetration, I've actually run my own tests (based on an article I read).

Using leftover drywall from a remodel I did (fully intact) I simulated walls by connecting two pieces of drywall to 2x4 studs and stuffing the insides iwth left over insulation material.

I set up three walls at 10 foot intervals, and started shooting.

Both Hornady TAP 55 grain and 60 grain (common "self defense" rounds)
Penetrated all three simuated walls, although some of the 60 grain bullets had begun to fragment by the third wall.


45 ACP penetrated also penetrated all three walls, as did 9MM, and exited the third wall


The buckshot also showed some penetration through the third wall, but the spread was widened to the point where much of the buckshot didn't even hit the wall, and there was a significant amount of spread between each piece that did.

At the end of the day, its still your personal choice, but a 1250-2500% greater allowed margin of aiming error, and a lower chance of accidental injury to inhabitants was enough for me to go with the shotgun as my weapon of choice for home invasion.


but hey.... What do us uneducated mall ninjas know?

[Irving]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

[BigBear]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

Yay! Co-AR15 Forum get together! Sign up list below.

Wall/Ballistics Evaluation Volunteer sign up:

Ammo (9mm, .45ACP, 5.56/.223, 12ga) -
Wall (drywall, 2x4s, nailgun, insulation) -
Guns -
Ice Cold Beverages -
Range -
Calculaters, ballistics thingys to measure crap -
Other stuff to blow up -







Sarcasim, yes.


As long as the perp ends up dead, use whatever you have access too, even a baseball bat!

[sniper7]

I have found a full auto airsoft gun to be the safest way, with enough direct pellet hits to the temple, the perp would more than likely suffer life long migraine headaches and I don't have to worry about hurting my drywall, let alone the paint or texturing

[iamhunter]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

A bullet doesn't quite take the same velocity penalities as a baseball bat, but I understand your point.

The point I was making is that my decision and preferences are educated ones,

not the ramblings of a "mall ninja"

[Bailey Guns]

See, I thought this was a forum of like-minded enthusiasts who could have intelligent, civilized discussion. But I guess attacking people's opinions and calling them "Mall Ninjas" is a better way to promote community.

Obviously I didn't think that a knowledgeable gunman would take my claim as shooting in the "general direction" at face value. What I really meant is you can afford to be LESS PRECISE with your aim (which is a common occurence under stress)

But since you seem to more of a facts oriented guy, let's present some of those.

At a distance of 5 feet or under, a 18" barreled 12 gauge shot gun (using 00 buckshot) will provide a 2" spread, carrying the wadding into the wound with the pellets, and creating a solid 2" hole.

As distance increases to 10 feet, your looking at a 4" hole,

at distances greater than 20 feet, you no longer had a solid hole and instead have a spread of pellets 9"-12", creating a still incapacitating and quite probably fatal injury, and no chance of wall penetration.

So, just using straight statistics, as compared to .223

@ <5 feet, you have a 450% greater allowed margin of aiming error

@ <10 feet this increases to 900%

and @ >20 feet this increases to 2500%

As compared to .45 ACP these numbers are 225%, 450%, and 1250% respectively.

If you would like to reproduce these numbers on your own to test for accuracy,
Now you may argue that these percentages represent only inches in real life, but when shot placement counts, those inches could make the difference between life or death.


And as for penetration, I've actually run my own tests (based on an article I read).

Using leftover drywall from a remodel I did (fully intact) I simulated walls by connecting two pieces of drywall to 2x4 studs and stuffing the insides iwth left over insulation material.

I set up three walls at 10 foot intervals, and started shooting.

Both Hornady TAP 55 grain and 60 grain (common "self defense" rounds)
Penetrated all three simuated walls, although some of the 60 grain bullets had begun to fragment by the third wall.


45 ACP penetrated also penetrated all three walls, as did 9MM, and exited the third wall


The buckshot also showed some penetration through the third wall, but the spread was widened to the point where much of the buckshot didn't even hit the wall, and there was a significant amount of spread between each piece that did.

At the end of the day, its still your personal choice, but a 1250-2500% greater allowed margin of aiming error, and a lower chance of accidental injury to inhabitants was enough for me to go with the shotgun as my weapon of choice for home invasion.


but hey.... What do us uneducated mall ninjas know?

Since we're just trying to be "LESS PRECISE" I won't even bother getting into things like "variables", "generalizations" and "controls".

[SSChameleon]

I had a drink or two after work and I would like to stir the pot a little in regard to the whole buckshot vs. birdshot thing.

I have heard stories (that means I have no way to prove or substantiate the following claim) that home invaders would wear the tread of old tires cut into a vest to stop birdshot when they would break into a home. I'm not sure I would trust my home defense to a cartridge that could be overcome with such a simple device.

On the other hand, I have tried 'ghetto slugs' which would not work in a pump action, but when shooting a break action shottie you cut around the plastic of a shot shell just above the bottom of the wad so when you shoot the wad and plastic part of the shell come out. This is both stupid and dangerous but I've seen what it can do to corrugated steel and it puts a nice hole in it at 15 feet.