Your "Go to home defense SHTF firearm!

[Irving]

So it actually killed the guy?

[iamhunter]

There is some serious "mall ninja" mentality being displayed in this thread.

I agreee about the "aim a shotgun in the general direction" and the ".223 penetrates more than a 9mm/.45ACP/too much for indoor use" myths. It's extremely annoying to see that on a forum where you'd think people would know better.

See, I thought this was a forum of like-minded enthusiasts who could have intelligent, civilized discussion. But I guess attacking people's opinions and calling them "Mall Ninjas" is a better way to promote community.

Obviously I didn't think that a knowledgeable gunman would take my claim as shooting in the "general direction" at face value. What I really meant is you can afford to be LESS PRECISE with your aim (which is a common occurence under stress)

But since you seem to more of a facts oriented guy, let's present some of those.

At a distance of 5 feet or under, a 18" barreled 12 gauge shot gun (using 00 buckshot) will provide a 2" spread, carrying the wadding into the wound with the pellets, and creating a solid 2" hole.

As distance increases to 10 feet, your looking at a 4" hole,

at distances greater than 20 feet, you no longer had a solid hole and instead have a spread of pellets 9"-12", creating a still incapacitating and quite probably fatal injury, and no chance of wall penetration.

So, just using straight statistics, as compared to .223

@ <5 feet, you have a 450&#37; greater allowed margin of aiming error

@ <10 feet this increases to 900%

and @ >20 feet this increases to 2500%

As compared to .45 ACP these numbers are 225%, 450%, and 1250% respectively.

If you would like to reproduce these numbers on your own to test for accuracy,
Now you may argue that these percentages represent only inches in real life, but when shot placement counts, those inches could make the difference between life or death.


And as for penetration, I've actually run my own tests (based on an article I read).

Using leftover drywall from a remodel I did (fully intact) I simulated walls by connecting two pieces of drywall to 2x4 studs and stuffing the insides iwth left over insulation material.

I set up three walls at 10 foot intervals, and started shooting.

Both Hornady TAP 55 grain and 60 grain (common "self defense" rounds)
Penetrated all three simuated walls, although some of the 60 grain bullets had begun to fragment by the third wall.


45 ACP penetrated also penetrated all three walls, as did 9MM, and exited the third wall


The buckshot also showed some penetration through the third wall, but the spread was widened to the point where much of the buckshot didn't even hit the wall, and there was a significant amount of spread between each piece that did.

At the end of the day, its still your personal choice, but a 1250-2500% greater allowed margin of aiming error, and a lower chance of accidental injury to inhabitants was enough for me to go with the shotgun as my weapon of choice for home invasion.


but hey.... What do us uneducated mall ninjas know?

[Irving]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

[BigBear]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

Yay! Co-AR15 Forum get together! Sign up list below.

Wall/Ballistics Evaluation Volunteer sign up:

Ammo (9mm, .45ACP, 5.56/.223, 12ga) -
Wall (drywall, 2x4s, nailgun, insulation) -
Guns -
Ice Cold Beverages -
Range -
Calculaters, ballistics thingys to measure crap -
Other stuff to blow up -







Sarcasim, yes.


As long as the perp ends up dead, use whatever you have access too, even a baseball bat!

[iamhunter]

I'm still waiting for someone to shoot through some walls and have ballistic gel behind it. I can throw a baseball through drywall (and I throw like a damn girl) but that doesn't mean it'd kill anyone on the other side.

A bullet doesn't quite take the same velocity penalities as a baseball bat, but I understand your point.

The point I was making is that my decision and preferences are educated ones,

not the ramblings of a "mall ninja"

[sniper7]

I have found a full auto airsoft gun to be the safest way, with enough direct pellet hits to the temple, the perp would more than likely suffer life long migraine headaches and I don't have to worry about hurting my drywall, let alone the paint or texturing

[275RLTW]

So it actually killed the guy?

Yes, there was nothing that could be done. Multiple organ failure due to the perforations and the shockwave from each projectile and the uncontrolable loss of blood (can't plug that many holes in a 6-7" area compared to a few from a rifle/handgun). Only a handful of the pellets passed competely through, no marks in the drywall behind him.

In another case a suspect was shot at <10ft with OO Buck. Doc removed 9 pellets from him & he was discharged from the hospital hours later.

[Irving]

Where was he shot? (the buckshot guy)

Despite those two cases, it is still ridiculous to assume that bird shot is more effective than buckshot. I've seen the mug shots of a guy that took a load of birdshot to the face. He obviously lived. I wish I could find the shots.

[iamhunter]

Where was he shot? (the buckshot guy)

Despite those two cases, it is still ridiculous to assume that bird shot is more effective than buckshot. I've seen the mug shots of a guy that took a load of birdshot to the face. He obviously lived. I wish I could find the shots.

I do recall an article about a little girl (12ish) who was home alone when two perps broke into her house.

She was a competition trap shooter and kill them both.

Can't remember what kind of shot she was using though....

[Irving]

There were a couple of deaths in Britain from air rifles as well. Little kid got shot in the chest and died. That doesn't mean I'm going to use my Daisy for home defense though. (especially since I'd have to go out and buy one first)