The Whole AR15 Language

[Bongo Boy]

I'm fairly confused. In my explorations, it looks like sometimes, at least, "AR-15" is used to mean a general receiver/action design, rather than anything more specific. So, I see ads for things like "AR-10 .308 AR-15 receiver", which kind of cranks my sensibilities. It's as though we use models to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean. I understand these weapons systems are modular...but you have to help me out here. It's as though folks try to use AR-10 to mean .308, when they don't, and try to use AR-15 to mean something else.

So where do I start, in order to understand the significant design differences, and to separate what a gun is chambered for from how it operates?

It appears to me that I can call something AR-10 in several calibers, and same with AR-15. If you separate out chambering, what's the difference in these designs?

But then, I spent most of my life thinking Kalashnikov's first name was Anton...and that's where AK came from. I'm so humbled. Until about a week ago, I truly believed "AR-10" was the Armalite 12 guage selective fire weapon, and I still wonder why anyone thinks a forward assist device represents anything short of a design dork up. But on all these things, looks like I'm wrong. Any suggestions as to where to start?

[SA Friday]

AR-10's are essentially chambered for 308 Win (7.62x51 NATO), but since there are many different calibers made off of the 308 case, it can accomidate those chambers for the most part: 7mm-09, 260 Rem... Essentially the same case, but different neck sizes.

The AR-15 has the same thing going on as the AR-10's but it's more to do with the size of the head of the case. If the head of the case will fit in the bolt and work in the mag, it will run in the gun if the barrel is changed: most common are 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 50 Bewulf.

Some parts are interchangable, but most are not. The biggest visual indicator between the two is the magwell. The AR-10 is cut much higher in the front to accomidate the larger magazine. Most AR-10's have a different charging handle or mechanism than an AR-15 too.

Don't get too wrapped up about it. It takes time.

[Delfuego]

Don't forget the price difference in AR-15 vs AR-10. Not much more metal but twice the price?

[SAnd]

You start by asking the people that made the gun what to call it.

Eugene Stoner designed the AR-15 / M-16. The first production Stoner rifles were designated AR-15. Colt got the contract to put them into mass production for the US military under the military designation M-16. The US government ended up owning the patent rights to the design. That meant the design specifications were public property and anyone could produce them. So a lot of people are making them with mostly interchangeable parts. The problem comes in when Colt said they had the rights to the names "AR-15" and "M-16" and several other names so other people had to come up with other names. Generally an AR means a semiautomatic and M-16 means it has full automatic fire capability.

"AR-10" is a trademark owned by ArmaLite Incorporated in Illinois. They were the first to manufacture a 7.62 NATO caliber rifle based on the Stoner AR design. Since then several other manufacturers have started making AR style guns for .308 or other larger cartridges. Because the AR-10 was the first .308 rifle based on the Stoner design some people call any .308 an AR-10. ArmaLite has gone after makers who use their trademarked name (AR-10).

So what you end up with is a bunch of different manufacturers making the similar guns with a lot of different manes as well as using changing military designations. Some of them stay close to the original AR-15 / M-16 and others have "improvements". It's a jumbled up mess. If you want to start a major purse fight on a forum ask which is better the- The M-16 or the AK-47.

There isn't a quick answer.

Now you're really confused.

[Colorado Osprey]

You start by asking the people that made the gun what to call it.

Eugene Stoner designed the AR-15 / M-16. The first production Stoner rifles were designated AR-15. Colt got the contract to put them into mass production for the US military under the military designation M-16. The US government ended up owning the patent rights to the design. That meant the design specifications were public property and anyone could produce them. So a lot of people are making them with mostly interchangeable parts. The problem comes in when Colt said they had the rights to the names "AR-15" and "M-16" and several other names so other people had to come up with other names. Generally an AR means a semiautomatic and M-16 means it has full automatic fire capability.

"AR-10" is a trademark owned by ArmaLite Incorporated in Illinois. They were the first to manufacture a 7.62 NATO caliber rifle based on the Stoner AR design. Since then several other manufacturers have started making AR style guns for .308 or other larger cartridges. Because the AR-10 was the first .308 rifle based on the Stoner design some people call any .308 an AR-10. ArmaLite has gone after makers who use their trademarked name (AR-10).

So what you end up with is a bunch of different manufacturers making the similar guns with a lot of different manes as well as using changing military designations. Some of them stay close to the original AR-15 / M-16 and others have "improvements". It's a jumbled up mess. If you want to start a major purse fight on a forum ask which is better the- The M-16 or the AK-47.

There isn't a quick answer.

Now you're really confused.

Couple of corrections and additions:
Eugene Stoner working at Armalite HELPED develope the AR-10. This weapon was rejected by our military and was made over seas by Artillerie Inrichtingen, a Dutch company. The AR-10 was used by Sudan, Portugal and Guatamala.
In 1955, US General Willard Wyman personally suggested to Armalite that they make the AR-10 in 22 caliber with wound ballistics equal to or exceeding the 30 Carbine for military testing.
What this boils down to is Eugene Stoner getting a lot of credit for designing the AR-15/M16's but mostly only contributed. The decision to go to the 22 cal bullet wasn't even his idea. The major contibutions by Stoner were not cheaping out on the rilfe.

Colt PURCHASED the rights to build the AR-15 from Fairchild (Parent Company of Armalite) Really no different than FN making the M4 and M16 today for Colt. (It's amazing that Colt still has the reputation for making these for the Military) The original contract and developement and improvments that made the gun mass producable was done by Fairchild at a developemenmt cost over $1.45 million (1955) dollars. Since the manufacturing contract didn't go to Armalite this cause E. Stoner to leave Armalite and they did a major company re-organization the next year.

Although the AR-10 and AR-15 look very similar, they share very few parts in common.
Same overall design, but the AR-10 is quite a bit larger and heavier. This is one reason for the developement of short fat cartridge adaptation into the AR-15 chassis. To get AR-10 308 power levels with the smaller AR-15 chassis. Olympic Arms has released a 30 OSSM that exceeds 30-06 velocity and energy even with heavy 180 ghrain bullets that fit the Ar-15 chassis. Remington has 2 years in a row released the 30RAR at the SHOT show, but still can't get to 308 numbers they published in their gun and has been delayed and delayed. This seems to be a growing trend that people want a AR-15 chassis in a heavier hitting cartridge without going to the BIG AR-10 chassis.

[Circuits]

[SIZE=1]
"AR-10" is a trademark owned by ArmaLite Incorporated in Illinois. They were the first to manufacture a 7.62 NATO caliber rifle based on the Stoner AR design. Since then several other manufacturers have started making AR style guns for .308 or other larger cartridges. Because the AR-10 was the first .308 rifle based on the Stoner design some people call any .308 an AR-10. ArmaLite has gone after makers who use their trademarked name (AR-10).

Further, the current ArmaLite in Geneseo, IL bought the name and trademark in the mid 90's from whatever holding corp was hanging onto those assests ever since Fairchild divested (sold off) the ArmaLite Division in the 60's. Before buying the ArmaLite name, they were known as Eagle Arms, and still sell their "bargain" products under that name.

[SAnd]

Circuits and Colorado Osprey- you're both correct. I was trying illustrate that because of the number of different people and organizations involved in the AR15 type gun that there are lots of different names and terms to confuse someone. The fact is there are two rifles that legitimately have the AR10 designation and two different ArmaLite companies are a good examples of it. I had forgotten about the first AR10.

The two key things are that the M16 specifications are public domain and lots of people are making M16 derived guns. This makes a lot of variations available. And a lot of names for them.

I find the variety one of the good things about the M16 design.