thread about Socialized medicine and socialized eduation

[HBARleatherneck]

I want to hear peoples differing opinions on why socialized medicine is bad, and why socialized education is good. Civilized discussion. we have had too much angst and animosity lately.

We have had socialized education for a long time in this country. It has now become the norm. At some point it was not the norm and people were educated privately at home or in private institutions. is it because nobody in this last couple generations has even thought that there was a time when it was different? Now with the way we live, 2 parents working, public schools have to exist, because who would watch our kids? would 1 parent have to stay home? then we would have to live in smaller house and live a more meager exsistence. These are my thoughts. Why is socialized healthcare bad. I have VA healthcare. I never had a civilian doctor basically in my life. The VA has allways given me first rate care. So, socialized medicine cant be ALL bad. Lets talk. CIVILY

i think most government programs could be scaled back. i think that education and medical care are important. maybe a set standard that we have for minimum public education and medical care. and do away with things like government funded aids testing in africa, art, unnecessary things. i believe educataion and medical care are pretty important. i think that these things should be state level. i am no expert. but kept at the local level, they might have a chance at not being so large. then if parents live in...say cherry creek and they have the set amount of tax dollars to educate thier kids, but they want to kick in extra funds to make the school better, thats great. but at least the minimum tax dollars would still take care of watts, or compton . ideas?

[BigBear]

I will try to chime in with my thoughts...

I belive your points for socialized education are valid. There seems to be a universal consensus on what is valuable knowledge and what is not. With the way our corporate structures are setup and the certain skill trades needed, there seems to be a lacking desire to get out of that norm... Along the lines of "it's a routine": i.e. if you want to work in x bussiness, you need to have x degree from x school. Also, socialized education has become somewhat of a babysitting service for working parents but I won't go into that detail.

As far as socailzed medicine. I am an Army Brat so I have had the opportunity to see both the military and civilian world in terms of doctors and hospitals. I had my car wreck when my father was still active military. Those doctors put me back together wonderfully. However, earlier in my life when we were stationed in Germany on an American base, I had to get my adenoids out and some tubes put in my ears along with some stiches in my elbow. These were the same military doctors... well, the stiches broke before I was out of the hospital, the tubes fell out of my ears causing major problems (believe it or not but I'm partially deaf in my left ear), and they only took out one adenoid.... unheard of. Yes, eventually it was all fixed. So there are good and bad concerning military doctors.

On the civilian side, I've had several reconstrutive surgeries from my car wreck... it seems like the civilian world is just concerned with the bottom line.

As far as socialized medicine is concerned, I can see some vaild points for it such as common network of doctors sharing information, prices may (or may not) be covered for "extra" services instead of being denied by insurance coverage, etc. However, I also believe that if our system were to be socialized, it could turn quickly into a governement taxation system (like it has in Great Britain and Canada) where the quality and quanity of care diminishes rapidly. There would be a cap on doctors pay, what they were regulated to do, etc.

Why does it work in the military? Because those doctors are taking care of our countreies defenders and family.

Why wouldn't it work in the civilian world? Too many examples to list such as the Great Britian and Canadian systems.

Looking forward to a great conversation!!

[Irving]

It has to do with the way that everything else in society is compartmentalized and specialized. People become trained to specialize in one area, then use their money to purchase things they can't produce on their own. The only difference with schools, is that the government has decided that it is so important that they will pay for it (by taxing YOU for it).

So, the question is, are you more curious about why institutions that just specialize in education exist? If so, you might as well pose the question "why don't you grow your own food and build your own homes?"

Or, is your question more along the lines of why people have settled for mediocre government run schools? I suspect the answer to that is because they are abundant, convenient, and cheap.

[WillysWagon]

For VA Health Care, someone had to serve in the Military to get it, either you're parent if your were a youngster or yourself. This type of healthcare was something someone 'earned' by serving. Now take someone who's an 'illegal alien' going to the ER for free healthcare. I have a problem with that, as they've not contributed to the system and therefore should not get any benefit that others pay for, not to mention the "illegal" part of them being here. My sister-n-law is a US citizen now (she's from Romania) and she went through all the mess to get it, why can't others.

Education (public & private) is something that's for the 'common good' of all Americans. I feel it's the parents responsibility to raise & teach their younsters. I homeschooled my step-son for several years and paid my own way for it, but was paying for others to send their kids to public schools through the taxes I pay. Essentially, I was paying twice. I like the idea of parents paying more for their kids to go to school and me paying nothing, cause I don't have any kids. You want kids, you pay for their education. Illegal aliens get the benefit of their kids going to school on your/my dime and they pay nothing for it because they get paid under the table, no taxes and what not. Again, I have a problem with that.

Just my .02, YMMV

[HBARleatherneck]

i am combat disabled veteran. 100% so i hope i earned my VA care. (maybe there is a starting point, everyone serves in the mil, everyone gets medical

one problem with all gov programs is size. going off the thoughts of WIllysWagon. we all pay into a system, and some(illegals) take advantage. but, the other problem is budgets grow exponentially each year. what does it really cost to educate our children? what do we(as a collective) pay per child. i think we pay much more than we should, and i think more than we get in return.(in most cases)

and i am talking about costs like building upkeep, utilities, upgrades, new structures, etc. also.

[WillysWagon]

i am combat disabled veteran. 100% so i hope i earned my VA care.

one problem with all gov programs is size.

Yep, you're healthcare is 'earned', just like mine was. The slippery slope is deciding what do we pay for as a whole society vs what do we have people pay for seperately. We pay for streets to be maintained, street lights to work, etc..because it benefits us as a society. But where do we draw the line and say, "You want that, you gotta poney up for it yourself".
An example is healthcare, let's say I pay the same amount for gov healthcare as "Joe Citizen" over there. I don't use it cause I'm healthy, but "JC" is there once a week cause he smokes like a chimney, drinks like a fish, whatever and is using/abusing the system to the fullest. Is it fair he pays the same as me even though he uses it more than I. Good question I think. We can't be a 'pay as you' go society, cause that just would never work. I'll only pay for the streets I drive on, not the ones I don't use, etc... How do we decide whats for the "Common Good" ?? This part scares me as the gun grabbers say, "We want gun restrictions for the common good", but who's common good is it for ??

HBAR, this is the type post that we can talk about forever and not come to a conclusion on much, hahaha. Good stuff to think about though.

[Hoosier]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.

[HBARleatherneck]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.

this is true. we have been a socialist country for years. not that its bad. just have to maintain some acceptable balance. republican balance is less, but still some. democrat balance is more.

every aspect of life is nearly touched by "socialism" roads, schools, medicine, military, parks, and the list goes on and on

[ChunkyMonkey]

One of the best socialized medicine in the world is in Singapore. That being said, the govt does not require everyone to be in it either. It's private hospitals and doctors are among the top 5 in the world.

How those two can go along side by side? It has a lot to do with the lack of entitlement or hand out mentality.

[HBARleatherneck]

i went to a religious school for many years. but, at some point my father coulnt afford the couple hundred a month, so i was sent to public school. my father would have never allowed me to read the books we did in school, but because the school had us read it, he allowed it. so he went against his principles for the "free education"

we have no voucher system for religous or people who might find a better solution for thier kids. should we? some people pay into a system they dont use. do they deserve some monies to educate thier kids as they see fit?