thread about Socialized medicine and socialized eduation

[Hoosier]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.

[HBARleatherneck]

If socialism is taking more money from people who earn more money, and using all the collected funds for projects which (generally) benefit everyone, then having taxes per based on a percentage of income is socialism. So the US has been "socialist" for a long time.

This isn't a matter of absolutes. We probably wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no socialism at all. The poor would be destitute and forced to crime to survive.

So the question is where do you set taxes, what services do you provide to citizens, and how much debt is acceptable. The argument isn't "No Socialism" vs. "Welfare/Communist State" as much as it is where in the middle do you set the bar. Canada and the EU generally have it set farther towards Nanny state than the US. Somalia on the other hand is hard up against the far side of the peg, little to no state.

this is true. we have been a socialist country for years. not that its bad. just have to maintain some acceptable balance. republican balance is less, but still some. democrat balance is more.

every aspect of life is nearly touched by "socialism" roads, schools, medicine, military, parks, and the list goes on and on

[ChunkyMonkey]

One of the best socialized medicine in the world is in Singapore. That being said, the govt does not require everyone to be in it either. It's private hospitals and doctors are among the top 5 in the world.

How those two can go along side by side? It has a lot to do with the lack of entitlement or hand out mentality.

[HBARleatherneck]

i went to a religious school for many years. but, at some point my father coulnt afford the couple hundred a month, so i was sent to public school. my father would have never allowed me to read the books we did in school, but because the school had us read it, he allowed it. so he went against his principles for the "free education"

we have no voucher system for religous or people who might find a better solution for thier kids. should we? some people pay into a system they dont use. do they deserve some monies to educate thier kids as they see fit?

[Beprepared]

I like to take an antiquated and 10th amendment approach. The Feds should be contributing (taxing) for military, (some) roads, international issues, and a few minor misc. things. The State is responsible with its own constitution and laws to take care of or not, anything else. If a State chooses to implement socialistic laws, I vote at the ballot box or with my feet. This includes education, health care, and yes, 'some' gun control issues.

My wife is a long time nurse. Health care went economically south when Medicare started to price fix. It steadily drove costs up. Tort reform would be great. But once again that is squarely in the States jurisdiction. If places like Texas and believe it or not California choose to reform malpractice laws great. Also, if a State elects to open its borders to interstate health insurance commerce, good for them they will benefit from free trade. But it is their right, not the Feds.

As for education, thank God Colorado has choices. You might guess what I'm going to say. More State and local rights not Feds. If a community chooses to have good schools and educate its youth they will prosper. If they don't MOVE! With the Feds controlling everything, they have taken away what the founders so painstakingly argued. A Federal system not National. Nowhere in early documents does it say National. This was very deliberate, and many fought hard to keep it that way.

[HBARleatherneck]

yes, agreed, power to the local level.

this is better for libs too. not just for conservatives.

so if a state wants to give gays or any other group equal or preferential treatment, thats thier business. if they want to tax themselves to death. thats thier business. some will stay. some will go.

[GreenScoutII]

You know, the issue of what to do about health care is one I've struggled with for a long time trying to decide what to believe.

My objection to the current health care reform is that it forces all of us to do business with a private insurance company. I see this as only benefiting the insurance companies and only leading to much higher rates for consumers. Stuart and anybody else in the insurance business, don't take this personally, but my experiences with insurance companies has been negative overall and I have little to no confidence that they will ever do right by anyone other than their own bottom lines. Also, this is a constitutional issue as I see it because I don't see any grounds the govt might have to assume it has the authority to make us do business with any company.

The issue of constitutionality brings up an interesting question to ponder: Does the constitution forbid any kind of socialized endeavor? Public school, city fire & police departments, road construction and maintenance all fall into this category. As such, I don't necessarily see an issue. Another point to consider is that we already have socialized medicine for a sizable number of our citizens. We have medicare, medicaid, the VA, and, I'm sure some others I haven't mentioned. Also, we have socialized medicine by default in many cases. When a person arrives at an ER with some condition needing immediate treatment, that treatment is provided regardless of the patients ability to pay. Ultimately those costs are spread out over the rest of us. Thus, socialized medicine by default.

Speaking for myself, I see health care as something a little different than the strict business transaction that many of my more conservative friends view it as. With almost any other business agreement (buying and selling) of goods or services, no one is likely to die if that good or service is not provided. I see it as an issue of human rights and common decency. I just don't think it is acceptable to allow people to suffer and even die when there are treatments which could save them. I can't justify this morally. It has been said that the true measure of a society is in how it treats it's weakest members. I believe this. If that makes me a liberal, so be it. Flame away.

I don't think socialized medicine would be perfect or even work much better than what we already have. There would be abuses, there would be people who want to be seen for every cough, cold, and case of the sniffles, I'm sure there would be scammers too. Also, I'm sure the cost would be incomprehensible, but, as I understand it, we already pay more per capita for health care than any other western nation. The only way I see our current system as better than anyone else's is that we can obtain treatment more quickly for non life threatening conditions.

Maybe it is time to consider what kind of society we want to be. Does coming together as citizens to benefit the common good necessarily vacate the constitutional principals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Or are the two concepts not mutually exclusive?

Guys, I'm no expert. I'm just a plumber, an average blue collar guy. But what I do know is the system we have at present is broken. I'm not saying we need to have socialized medicine, but we have to do something.

Oh, and in case anybody thinks I'm one of the people with his palm out looking for a freebie, we have private health insurance. GOOD insurance we pay through the nose for. I don't really see how paying for health care could get much more expensive for my family than what we already pay.

Also, I just enrolled my girls in Catholic school because I don't think public school is anything more than a way to warehouse young people. So I do see both sides. I'm just trying to provoke discussion.

This is a great thread! Come on guys, what are your thoughts?

[HBARleatherneck]

your last post, is what i have been getting at. why are people so adamant against socialized medical, but ok with socialized education?

is it everyone trying to be tough, anti-liberals? so we follow the line and the line says we are against healthcare for the masses. this is definetly a moral and ethical problem. more that just politics. what if one of us/you lost all means to make money and needed medical care? do we say screw you? you should have planned for it? my question

maybe we need to remove some of the "frills" from our society to make sure we can provide a good education and medical treatment.
i am also no expert. i was a certified police officer. i was 8 years Marine Corps. i was a professional farrier. but, i am a father, a husband and i do care about people for the most part. i hate to see unnecessary suffering.

what if we got rid of national endowment for the arts? rid public subsidized non essentials like that. maybe you have a list of items we could cut or cut back to improve education and provide care for people. i am against forcing someone into school or healthcare, but as a caring and human society wouldnt it be good to provide those two?

[Backinblackrifles]

When a person arrives at an ER with some condition needing immediate treatment, that treatment is provided regardless of the patients ability to pay.

This is what I don't get about the whole thing, I think the point about the new bill is greed, I believe that the above is " The great American Way" why would we increase taxes, Kill all the tree for the paper to implement it? The only two things I can think of is.. A it is a stunt by Mr. Obama he wants to be remembers as the first Black president and can show the world something ( I don't know what) B... Greed. I think Mr. Obama wants A.. and the people that he works for want B.

[Backinblackrifles]

Well I have said it here before, Most guys on this sight don't trust the government with You're rights, You're money, You're guns, or You're best interest Why would You trust them with You're Children?

The biggest argument I see now against home schooling is that the kids are not "socialized" I for a fact know this is complete BS. Kids that are home schooled have a since of responsibility, and tend to be taught how to think rather than WHAT to think. Parents seem to think they are not "educated enough" or don't have time again I call BS, If You raise You're child from an early age to be responsible leave them at home give em the rules and tell them what You expect to do while You are gone, such as, Don't answer the door, Do You're work I will check it when I get home, Read You're bible (if You believe that) and then if they do it reward em if they don't punish em, As a teacher You are supposed to show them how to find the answer Not give it to them.

There was a time when I believe the system was not all that bad, But now it is completely lacking Kids coming out of the public system Have no sense of responsibility, They get on sports teams and they suck, they are told to do the work and they don't and there are no repercussions they get away from it. If they don't do the work they are putt in "special" classes and then given the answers. My wife went to the public school system for awhile, Her family has a history of being Dyslexic ( and not the kind that comes from bad phonetics ) she actually sees things backwards, they called her stupid putt her on riddling stuck her in a "special" class and said She had ADD and nobody made an effort to help Her.( She was pulled out and home schooled with great success and graduated) Then graduation comes and they have NO idea what the real world is like, Because they were never pushed or handed discipline or told they have to be better than every one else they are told "just play on the team and do You're best" (codling voice), I mean seriously when was the last time You went to a job interview competing against 200 other people that want the job and You get hired because the Boss thinks You are going to do You're best? NO YOU GET THE JOB BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER THAN THE REST! Little boys are getting neutered being told they have no responsibility to their families because they are no longer being taught to be Men, they turn 18 get kicked out into the world and have 0 real world experience they get some girl knocked up and then have NO clue how to be a MAN and raise and care for a wife and child, They can't even take care of themselves!? And it scares the hell outta me, You raised You're child changed their dippers, Fed them, worked hard so there is a roof over their head, Now look at You're Child and ask You're self when the tables turn and I NEED MY DIAPERS CHANGED, AND I NEED SOMEONE TO FEED ME, AND I NEED SOMEONE TO PUTT A ROOF OVER MY HEAD, Do You look at You're child and feel comforted? Every one here Has a problem with Obama If You have a child in the age range of 18-26 You can probably thank them and their friends and other people in their age group for that little surprise, Obama "ideas" are what they are being taught. And We have been so lax about it that there is very little You as a parent can do about it because we are to busy for whatever reason, as were most of our parents that We have Pissed away our right to have any say what go's into are Younger generations Heads. Well that is about all the steam I have for now, but one last point, Are You guys going to tell You're kids Guns are bad? Don't touch them they can hurt You? Or are You going to teach them how to wield the greatest power man kind possesses to take life ( and anybody with a gun has this power easily accessible) and to be responsible with that power? Or trust it to other people? Remember YOU'RE Child may someday be the MAN or WOMEN with the little red button and the nuclear launch codes at their finger tips one day.

So for the second time In closing, wether You send You're Child to public school or home school it is YOU who have the responabilty to teach and train YOU'RE child because math, science, and english, Are the least important when it comes to making a responsible, upstanding human being. In the end it is going to be all our fault for whatever reason We chose to ignore our children and We will one day be at their Mercy. And I am scared.