These are great. Thank you.Originally Posted by Anton
Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums
Welcome to the Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums.
Welcome to the Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums.
These are great. Thank you.
Uncontrolled immigration is costly for us all. It's just common sense. You can only divide the American pie so many times. I'm at a lost for words how anyone on this forum would argue otherwise. Open your eyes to what's around you. In just my life: I see how much money we spend on educating illegals in the Denver school system. My sister-in-law is a teacher there. Those teachers go through hell to educate these illegals. And it's all for nothing. The students don't see themselves as Americans. They leave for months at a time going back to their homeland (Mexico). They only take advantage of our generously. The teachers are put through hell. The one day in the semester the students are counted for attendance reimbursement for the schools, the teachers have to go to each students house and beg the parents to make sure the students attend that day. The parents do not care about the education it's just daycare for the day. They take their kids and leave for weeks, months at a time. It's just one big screwed up mess. You wouldn't believe the stories of how much money is spent on these illegals. And again, it's all for nothing. They don't have our values. They are not Americans. They don't give a crap about our country. They are just taking advantage of us. These teaches are mostly brain washed liberals that think they are making a difference. They give 100% of themselves for these non-Americans. It's such a waste.
Grandpa's Sheriff Badge, Littleton 1920's
That's the primary issue for me. I prefer to have an argument where I can present firm numbers and solid facts, but the lack of integration is a far bigger threat to America than the monetary costs. When my ancestors came to America from 'the old country', they forbid their children from speaking anything but English. I'm sure it wasn't easy to forget where they came from but they worked hard to become Americans and even changed the family surname to make it more American.
I'm sure there are many immigrants today who work hard to integrate. But there are even more who want to change America to reflect their home country so they don't have to. I've never been more disgusted in my life than when I saw the immigration protests around the country a couple years ago and saw "Americans" burning the American flag and waving the Mexican flag. That shows me where their loyalty lies.
It might be un-PC but I'm going to call it how I see it. Do you really want America to look like Mexico, economically, culturally, politically? Some people do.
-First of all, I'm not defending any illegals at all what so ever. I'm telling you that your ideas are dumb.
-IF all the illegals used resources, the amount would add up to X amount, but they don't and it doesn't. Excellent point. 15% costs (still estimated) of the total possible figure (estimated) sounds like a great reason to re-institute some obscure practice the government practiced for a few months 50 years ago. I guess since my kitchen sink leaks, I'll go ahead and re-plumb my entire house. (my sink doesn't leak by the way).
-I can't pretend that most illegals, personally purchase auto insurance for the vehicles that they drive. However, I also know better than to just assume that all, or even a majority of illegals are getting into auto accidents with any frequency. When was the last time you caused an auto accident? I suppose that I have to assume that people who were born here are automatically better drivers than someone who wasn't born here? I'm going to guess that my personal experience as a claims adjuster handling 1,000s of auto claims over a period of a few years showed me that approx 1 out of 200 claims dealt with an uninsured vehicle, and even less than that with people who were here illegally means anything to anyone, so I won't even bother mentioning that.
-MB888, your rates most likely went up due to the rate adjustments that companies do every single quarter. It's illegal to raise your rates for a not-at-fault accident in this state. My insurance has been going down every six months for the past few years so that I pay over $100 less a month than when I first bought a policy with the company that I'm with now. Who am I supposed to blame that on? Your own driving record and choice of vehicle has a much greater affect on what you pay a month than illegal immigrants could EVER have. Insurance fraud is the major cause of higher rates, not illegal immigrants. Not to mention that there are FAR more uninsured and underinsured Americans cruising the streets than there are illegals.
-You know what other shitty program the government instituted during a major recession? Social security. I guess since we're not in that recession any more then that program worked and we should create more programs just like it right?
-I was born here. There is no where for me to be deported to.
-Way to completely miss the ball on the drug use/putting people in jail issue. How does putting a drug user in jail prevent OTHER PEOPLE from using drugs? It doesn't.
-It's a little bit harder for you to argue with sending illegal Chinese home, because they are white.
-I've looked at some of the links posted and I can't get around all the incomplete info in them. Everything is estimate, and every other sentence is "if this happened..." "If the total is..." if if if if if.
Of course illegals cost us money, of course its a problem. However, you guys are going to have to do a lot better than you are to convince me that it is anywhere near the cost of what we cost ourselves. A simple welfare reform would eliminate any chance of illegals directly receiving welfare benefits. Getting the insurance industry entirely out of the health care industry (well mostly out) would drop health care prices like a rock and would be much more effective than addressing the problem with illegal alien focused solutions. Tighter restrictions on hiring practices and greater punishments for hiring illegals would drastically reduce the amount of illegals being hired. So would repealing stupid laws like the minimum wage. All things that would be significantly more effective than pounding our chests and focusing on deporting people (who will just come right back over) will do.
For about the 200th time. I don't support any illegals. What I also don't support are insanely stupid ideas like "Operation Wetback" as viable solutions to solve our problems.
You guys get so riled up when I tell you that something you've said is a bad idea, that you can't even keep the point of the conversation in focus. You immediately assume that I am trying to protect illegals.
I'll type in bold to increase the chances of this being read and understood.
-Yes we have an immigration problem.
-Yes it costs us more money than if we didn't have the problem (like every other issue in the universe).
-Yes there are ways that we can help eliminate or curb this problem.
-No, ideas like "Operation Wetback" are not viable long term solutions. They are stupid knee-jerk reactions born from misplaced anger.
Spending resources on plans that are centered around deportation is guarantying failure and wasted money. If I have ants on my desk at work, rounding them up and taking them outside will only be a waste of my time if I don't also remove the pile of sugar under my keyboard. In the long run, the benefits of removing the sugar will far outweigh the benefits of taking the ants outside. Even if I never take the ants outside, they'll eventually go find something to eat some where else.
ANTS = ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
SUGAR = EASILY ACCESSIBLE HAND OUTS DUE TO POORLY WRITTEN LEGISLATION.
Do I need to include pictures next time we go through this?
"There are no finger prints under water."
It might be un-PC but I'm going to call it how I see it. Do you really want America to look like Mexico, economically, culturally, politically? Some people do.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. How could you have read this thread and missed that? This is exactly what I'm accusing many of our members of wanting. They don't even realize that is what they want.
"There are no finger prints under water."
Apparently, I can see the future.
Where are your facts? What research have you linked supporting your opinion?
Personal beliefs about the drug issue aside, how does putting a murderer in jail prevent other people from using drugs? How does putting a rapist in jail prevent other people from raping? ...because people don't want to go to jail. There's a lot of good arguments for decriminalizing drug use, that's not one of them.
Huh...
So I take it you support Arizona SB 1070 (Assuming you've read it)?
But I thought illegal immigration didn't cost taxpayers anything?
that is a ton of wasted bandwidth right there. you didn't respond to anything i said, you didn't respond to any of the links, the articles, the experts...you just randomly rant on.
now you are just arguing for the sake of an argument.
"operation wetback" or a similar deportation program was implemented by Hoover, Turman and Eisenhower. are you calling all of them knee jerk reaction presidents? did they have some misplaced anger trying to get troops jobs when they returned from war, or get jobs to the people who were starving in their own country?
This conversation is staying plenty on focus, your lack of response to quotes, links and FACTs seems to derail the thread more than anything.
you keep talking about "if if if" yet even in your own response you come up with an estimated number. the reason they are estimates is due to the nature of the beast...the illegals are UNDOCUMENTED which means they don't have solid numbers, just estimates, so obviously the data complied can't be exact.
"-IF all the illegals used resources, the amount would add up to X amount, but they don't and it doesn't. Excellent point. 15% costs (still estimated) of the total possible figure (estimated) sounds like a great reason to re-institute some obscure practice the government practiced for a few months 50 years ago. I guess since my kitchen sink leaks, I'll go ahead and re-plumb my entire house. (my sink doesn't leak by the way)."
call my ideas dumb all you want, but i see nobody else defending anything you are saying, I don't see you bringing up anything valid to counter anything I have said...other than my ideas are "dumb".
so since you were born here, you must feel an entitlement to stay...you have nowhere to be deported to, yet you harp on me for entitlement issues, get a clue.
great ant analogy, except you are missing the point. you LIVE off that sugar, if they eat it all and move on, you are FUCKED. get it yet?
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're behind in the debate here. Allow me to catch you up.
1) Don't ever say "There's a lot of good arguments for decriminalizing drug use, that's not one of them." to me again. That is my line. I use it all the time. The reason that didn't sound like a reason to decriminalize drugs, is because it wasn't. That's not what we are talking about. I was giving, what I thought was, a very simple analogy to point out the difference between punishing someone for something, and providing a solution to fixing the problem. I used drug use because it is similar to immigration in that punishing the people who are caught for using, does nothing to curb other people from using. I didn't want to use drugs, because I wanted to avoid this exact issue of someone losing focus of the issue and making incorrect assumptions about my personal feelings of drug use. If you very honestly think that the possibility of getting into trouble has ever stopped a significant number of people from using drugs, then I can tell you right now that you and I will never have a productive discussion about drugs. If you'd like to talk about drugs, start another thread, or use the search function and look for some of my other posts.
2) Yes, I fully support the bill in Arizona. I've stated that over and over on here, but no one seems to understand that. You get a pass because you just recently joined and have obviously only read posts of mine from as far back as May 1st.
3) I've never said that illegal immigration didn't cost tax payers money. I said that all of the solutions I've seen suggested thus far are stupid at best.
"There are no finger prints under water."
Perhaps you can find research reflecting that claim. One of the purposes of punishing crimes is to deter other people from committing those crimes...Or perhaps you believe jail isn't enough of a deterrent? Should we go back to flogging?
You brought it into the discussion.
Great.
You specifically said that 'illegals costing taxpayers money' was 'drivel'...
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