WTK: Open carry and ID in CO

[OneGuy67]

I am not trying to start anything, The following is an actual question I have long held.

So if John Citizen calls the police on me and leaves an "anonymous tip", Johnny Law comes and "detains me" for 3 days pending investigation, what happened to my right to face my accuser?

You can't be held for 3 days, pending an investigation. You can only be arrested if there is probable cause to believe you commited a violation of state law. Anonymous tips cannot be used alone to make an arrest. Case law supports that. Case law allows it to make a contact, but needs to be supported by other facts to warrant an arrest. Two examples: A 911 call reporting a drunk driver is not probable cause to make an arrest; it is reasonable suspicion to make a stop and the subsequent investigation determines probable cause for an arrest. Second, a 911 call saying a black male on 3rd and Wood streets is carrying a gun. Cops cannot go and arrest said black male based on that call. They would need to develop some other evidence prior to making an arrest.

Florida v. J.L. (2000)
Anonymous information cannot be used for probable cause without other substantiating information. Apart from the tip, officers had no reason to suspect
the suspect of illegal conduct. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: it provided no predictive
information and therefore left police without means to test the informant’s knowledge or credibility.

Your right to face your accuser, as part of the 5th Amendment deals with court, not at the time of the contact by law enforcement.

So I spend 3 days in lockup, thus lose my job, My Home, Wife leaves and takes the kids because someone accused me of some horrible crime, The evening News paints me out to be some deviant monster all because of this "report of a man (doing whatever)?"

I Honestly believe that the "Suspicion' by law should be backed with some evidence.

Call comes in to 911 "Man with Gun threatening homeowner"
Police show up and there's a man at the address with a firearm Drawn
By All means, "detain" him

report of a man waving a gun in a Blue SUV in Arvada.
You see a woman alone in a Blue SUV in Northglenn 2 minutes later (evening traffic)
get a warrant.

You are correct in this. If the report was for a male, you would need to be able to articulate that, unless the person could be reasonably observed as a male, but was in fact, a female. This is similar to saying a black male, but there is only a white male.

Seriously my Elderly Aunt had her vehicle stripped down on the side of the road and was left there to reassemble it herself.
Unable to do so she had to walk home, suffered frostbite and had all of her shit stolen.
Northglen PD Told her that if she pursued it there would be "repercussions."

I don't understand this portion of your statement. What repercussions and what was to be pursued?

[hip55]

Easily bootstrapped in Colorado, all he needs is someone to call in a "man with a GUN!! OMFG" and cite with "disturbing the peace". Then he has reasonable suspicion that you are that "man" and can stop you, ask for ID, pat you down, cuff you, disarm you, and generally make your life miserable until he ascertains you have no wants or warrants, then fills out the report, eats lunch, and converses with his supervisor about their fantasy football league. Then he can send you peaceably on your way, all without actually charging you with anything or actually arresting you. Many if not most cops will NOT grind this scenario out to the bitter end if you are not a jerk, but they have a lot of discretion in how to handle it. Denver, Arvada, Lakewood, and Breckenridge have ordinances against open carry, and they can enforce them without conflicting with state law. CRS18-12-201 ONLY covers the supremacy of state law over local ordinance in regards to concealed carry, not open carry.

I didn't see any ordinances in Lakewood -

http://www.lakewood.org/index.cfm?&i...ter%209.70.cfm

[Byte Stryke]

What, in your opinion, is the difference between a peace officer and a LEO? I'm curious, so I'll know which one I'm supposed to be.

I am (personally) hoping (especially if I ever run into you) that you are a peace officer

Peace officers use their heads and the law to keep the peace.
Its a career and a dedication.

unfortunately for other "Badged persons", Paycheck and/or Attitude.
I Actually had a Cop give me extra tickets because I once punked him back in Junior high.
As I remember it was Failure to yield, Failure to Signal, Improper lane change and some other fairy-tale shit.
with all of the points it meant I had to carry an SR for 2 years.

[Byte Stryke]

I don't understand this portion of your statement. What repercussions and what was to be pursued?


*Gets Crayons*
So... if you made a stop and lets say, you made a mistake and you were looking for a MAN in a Blue SUV in Arvada and not a WOMAN in a Blue SUV in Northglen... and lets say you realised this AFTER you had the vehicle seats removed, contents of the trunk removed, door panels and anything else not bolted with more than 4 screws...
THEN it was found that your mistake had cost someone.... A LOT


and now lets assume you are one of the "kinda-good, but not really" guys.

I think it was pretty clear.

Ohh and since Police cannot detain you for 72 hours, how long is the maximum detain without charge here?

[OneGuy67]

I am (personally) hoping (especially if I ever run into you) that you are a peace officer

Peace officers use their heads and the law to keep the peace.
Its a career and a dedication.

unfortunately for other "Badged persons", Paycheck and/or Attitude.
I Actually had a Cop give me extra tickets because I once punked him back in Junior high.
As I remember it was Failure to yield, Failure to Signal, Improper lane change and some other fairy-tale shit.
with all of the points it meant I had to carry and SR for 2 years.

I can tell you, Byte, that I am a career professional that uses my head and heart, common sense and legal standing to keep the peace, but more importantly, find justice for victims, whether that victim is a person, family or frankly, the state of Colorado. I like my paycheck and my family depends upon it to survive, but I always weigh my actions and decisions with the weight of lawsuit and the loss of my paycheck and house and toys. Do I want to cave the face in of a mouthy, drunk punk? Yep, sometimes. Do I? Nope. My career, my house, my paycheck, my family mean too much to me to allow that person to get to me personally. I get my satisfaction with them being in jail. I've never used my badge to "get back" at anyone. Maybe it is because I spent a lot of years in the military before becoming a cop, getting an education, and I don't know...being a mature adult.

Now, if I run into you somewhere...hmm. I may have to arrest you for disagreeing with me!

Seriously though, there are those here that have had dealings with me. I guess you would have to ask them if I am what you fear.

[TFOGGER]

I didn't see any ordinances in Lakewood -

http://www.lakewood.org/index.cfm?&i...ter%209.70.cfm

Mostly parks, community centers, etc., not actually a citywide ban....my mistake

9.32.050 Open carrying of a firearm prohibited parks, community centers, and recreational facilities.
A. The open carrying or wearing of a firearm within or upon the grounds of any community center, recreational facility, the Lakewood Civic Center, City park, City trail, or City open space including any City owned, operated, or leased building or property is unlawful when said City building or City property is posted with a sign at the entrance to any City building or City property informing persons that the open carrying of a firearm is prohibited in such building or area.
B. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the following:
1. A peace officer from openly carrying or wearing a firearm as shall be necessary in the proper discharge of his or her duties;
2. An employee of any armored car service agency providing money transport services pursuant to a contractual arrangement with the City from openly carrying or wearing a firearm as may be necessary in the proper discharge of his duties so long as the employee has been duly authorized by his employer to carry firearms and the employee is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment at the time the firearms are being carried or worn;
3. A person from openly carrying or wearing a firearm while upon the grounds of the Rooney Valley Law Enforcement Training Facility who is acting in compliance with the rules and regulations of the shooting range facility; or
4. A person from openly carrying or wearing a firearm when authorized by the Director to do so for the purpose of presenting a public demonstration or exhibition or for the purpose of participating in an athletic event.
C. Possession of a valid concealed handgun permit shall not constitute a defense to a charge of open carrying of a firearm in violation of this section.
D. "Firearm" means any handgun, automatic, revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun, or other instrument or device capable or intended to be capable of discharging bullets, cartridges, or other explosive charges.

[Byte Stryke]

Seriously though, there are those here that have had dealings with me. I guess you would have to ask them if I am what you fear.

Crooked/improper/undereducated/immature cops are just like anyone else.
speaking from "this side of the badge." (meaning I dont wear one) we never know what we are getting in an interaction either.
we might get a good cop with a level head and some sense of right.. and then sometimes you get the jackhole with a badge, a gun and 3 attitudes.

As with any career or profession you also have those people that will hose anyone over to get to their goals and the ends justify the means... even if it means you going to jail for shit you didn't do.


I guess what I am trying to say in a nutshell is the whole damned system is broken and as imperfect as people are... and it rubs my OCD the wrong way when I See it.

[OneGuy67]

I don't understand this portion of your statement. What repercussions and what was to be pursued?


*Gets Crayons*
So... if you made a stop and lets say, you made a mistake and you were looking for a MAN in a Blue SUV in Arvada and not a WOMAN in a Blue SUV in Northglen... and lets say you realised this AFTER you had the vehicle seats removed, contents of the trunk removed, door panels and anything else not bolted with more than 4 screws...
THEN it was found that your mistake had cost someone.... A LOT


and now lets assume you are one of the "kinda-good, but not really" guys.

I think it was pretty clear.

Ohh and since Police cannot detain you for 72 hours, how long is the maximum detain without charge here?

Okay... I guess I would REALLY need to know all the facts to this case and what exactly were they looking for that would be necessary to take the vehicle that far down. I've only seen a vehicle done that way once in my career and it was only after an anonymous tip supported by a dog hitting on the vehicle. Drugs were found in the vehicle.

If I had been involved with your aunt's situation, I would have made it right with her and she would have received an apology from me and my subordinates, if they were the ones who did it without my knowledge. I would find it hard to believe that a street officer would do that without a supervisor's knowledge. I don't know. Again, I would need to know all the information from both sides.

"REASONABLE SUSPICION":

Particularized and objective basis for suspecting that a citizen is involved in criminal activity. A law enforcement officer must be able to articulate facts that indicate a reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity. More than a mere hunch. Based on a set of facts and circumstances that would warrant a person of reasonable caution to believe that an infraction of the law has been committed, is about to be committed, or is in the process of being committed, by the person under suspicion.

"Detention"

The act of stopping or restraining and individuals’ freedom to walk away. Approaching and questioning an individual outside the realm of a consensual encounter; or stopping an individual suspected of being personally involved in criminal activity.

The amount of time you can be detained is a slippery thing. There isn't an exact time. It has to be "articulable" and "reasonable". The courts have allowed time periods between a few minutes to a few hours, depending upon those two words. You can be detained to allow time to investigate a lead that may or may not lead to your arrest. But that time needed, needs to be articulable and reasonable. It is reasonable to detain you to bring witnesses to your location to identify you as a suspect; it is reasonable to detain you while a clearance is run on you for warrants; it is unreasonable for that clearance to take a long time (again, time isn't set in stone). After a "reasonable" time, you should be released if the clearance hasn't come back.

Clear as mud? These are the things that officers wrestle and wrangle with every day.

[StagLefty]

Well I admit after reading 5 pages I'm still not sure about the ID question ???

[Irving]

Before I start, I want to point out, that just the fact that you are an active member of this board, really speaks to the strong likelihood that you have your head in the right place. Bad cops don't have calm, intelligent discussions with fellow firearm enthusiasts on-line. Bad cops laugh about "prone-ing out" law abiding citizens for open carrying, "just to show them who's in charge around here." on their Facebook page. Referring to that asshole in California who did just that.

My law book states this:

4 Ways to Search a Vehicle
1. Consent
2. Probable Cause
3. Impound Inventory
4. Search Incident to Arrest

Additional Ways
5. Plain View
6. Exigency
7. Search Incident to Detainment
8. Search Warrant

#5 here worries me. I have a feeling that if asked to step out of my car, and I refused a search of my vehicle, but there was a handgun laying in plain view on the back seat of my vehicle, that my window would be broken, my car would be searched, and I may even get tazed. Why though? Having a gun on your seat in plain view isn't illegal. I still bet my car would get searched without my consent though.

Now, on to some other points. First, I've open carried in Thornton before. I was contacted by an off duty officer. He was pretty young, but he didn't harass me or anything. He did strongly suggest that I not continue to open carry though.

I've also been stopped at a DUI check point and asked to step out of the vehicle while I was carrying concealed on my hip, WITHOUT a CCW. It was no big deal and I was impressed with how the officer handled the situation, and I made sure to tell him so. I also told the officer who contacted me for open carrying in Thornton.

On the other hand, when I had first bought my first gun, I asked every cop I ran into if I could legally carry the gun in my car. I was in Lakewood and approached some officers while they were having lunch at the Brother's Barbeque and asked them if I could carry a gun in the car. The male officer said I should have it unloaded, locked up, and in my trunk. The female officer told me that if I had it any where but locked up and unloaded and in the trunk that there was going to be trouble. My gun rights balls hadn't dropped yet, so I didn't tell her that she was flat out wrong at the time. However, the male officer looked at her and said, "And why is that?" after she gave me that line of bull. I excused myself and let them finish their lunch. I used to see her driving around all the time when I still lived in Lakewood too. I hope her partner correcter her.