History Repeating

[Zundfolge]

My wife got into an argument with a liberal a while back in which they cited how wonderful taxation was because it builds roads, schools, etc and to cut taxes is both stupid and evil ... this liberal cited the Roman Empire as an example of how taxation creates a great society.

Anyway, she stumbled across the following article (from the Cato Journal back in 1994) while researching her rebuttal.

How Excessive Government Killed Ancient Rome.

An interesting (and frankly troubling) read (although I expect folk in this crowd won't find it all that surprising).

[lebru]

You can't relate the romans to US gvt today. Our senators don't murder the president in cold blood then play it off as noting ;D Also, there were far greater external factors that led to the demise of the Roman empire. Far more external than internal, and taxation was the least on the list. You also have to account for factionalism as a result of spreading their empire too far, as well as the various bands/tribes of barbarians uniting together to over-run over stretched Roman outposts in places in present day german, france, spain, and england. As well as people generally pissed off at the lack of religious tolerance.

[roberth]

Thanks for putting this up Zundfolge.

I think I'll read it myself and come to my own conclusions.

[Irving]

Please tell your wife that if she has to resort to using Rome as a comparison, she's already lost the argument.

[Byte Stryke]

You can't relate the romans to US gvt today. Our senators don't murder the president in cold blood then play it off as noting

*CoughCouchHackCough.JFK.CoughCoughCough*

[jmg8550]

*CoughCouchHackCough.JFK.CoughCoughCough*

[Circuits]

Taxes are one form of a necessary evil: the state/polity needs money to carry out projects and provide services, especially those too large for small groups or requiring more coordination than a small group can provide. Taxation is one traditional way that polities raise money to perform their functions and provide services... if it weren't taxes it'd need to be something else (revenues from federal lands, conquering and enslaving other lands, or other means).

Our system is pretty much just taxes, so I'll stick to those:

Every dime of those taxes is being taken (essentially by force) from the pockets of those it is intended to serve... Wanting all private wealth converted into taxes is communism, while wanting no private wealth converted into taxes is (essentially) anarchy.

To make a case for no taxes or all taxes ignores the demonstrated utility of some tax rate greater than zero and less than 100% - don't fall into the fallacy of the missing middle.

Instead, what is required is a taxation amount which serves to provide the necessary functions of government, without excessively penalizing productive individuals or stifling economic growth.

What those "necessary functions" are is a constant source of debate, and must be arrived at, somehow, with an acceptable gestalt amongst the governed.

In early colonial times, for instance, there was no free or compulsory education of any kind. Later, communities banded together to build a schoolhouse and hire a teacher that their children might be educated. Later still we all decided that it'd be a good idea to fund education and make it compulsory through the 12th grade. Some folks want it funded completely for as long as anybody wants... The key for this government service is that we as a populace must agree on the level of taxation we're willing to put up with for education, and the amount of money that generates is used to fund as high an education as it funds.

No one has a RIGHT to a free education, and this entitlement of living in our greater national/state/county community simply reflects (or should) the level of education which can be achieved with the amount of general taxation that the community is willing to put up with in order to fund it.

The more services the government funds, the more taxes it needs to fund them. When the taxation to support those services exceeds what the populace is willing to put up with, the government should reasonably cut back on services. THERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM WITH OUR CURRENT SYSTEM.

Generations of well-meaning liberals (mostly) have enshrined in state constitutions or public laws, guarantees of services, some incorrectly referred to as rights, and some still correctly called entitlements, without regard to level of taxation required to fund those services.