Getting jumped or mugged

[cstone]

Good video. Thanks for posting. It is worth the seven minutes to watch for anyone who is trying to decide whether a CCW is worth the hassle.

How many times has it been posted: Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[ldmaster]

I've been there, done that, too. Had to defend myself and had to face the aftermath.

My advice is thus.

1. There is no law saying you have to STAY in the area the attack took place in, in fact it's quite justifiable for you to drive to the nearest place of safety before calling the police. You're fleeing for your life, and you have NO obligation to inform the police that you just had to fire your weapon IMMEDIATELY. You need to un-ass the area til you feel safe.

2. There is no time to determine if you can flee, there just isn't. And the law in Colorado does not require you to do so. There is the "sufficient time for reflection" standard that I've seen used though. I would never ever indicate that I "made a decision that I could not flee".

3. The moment the police arrive, you ARE under arrest - consider that this is the case until you know otherwise. They can and WILL charge you weeks or months later with an offense if they want to (happened to me).

4. Say nothing. If you feel you have to call 911 to report something, then use the bad-guys phone, if the bad guy does not have one, drive to a payphone. Getting away means you avoid any followup attack, and you give yourself time to come down a bit from your adrenaline high, you'll be spouting like a geyser on the phone if you call in the immediate aftermath on a cell phone. If you MUST make that immediate call, then call 911, say there's been trouble at your location, ask for medical and police and hang up. You'll get an immediate call back, dont answer. You dont have to explain a damn thing about why you didn't answer, you're the victim of a violent attack, of course you were not capable of doing anything useful for quite a long while. People who act calm on a 911 call are suspect, people who blather on about the fight will have it used against them, people who try to communicate the maximum amount of information, again, are building a case against themselves.

5. Do not respond to any commands from a dispatcher. They are not a police officer, and they are not there. Again, you've already hung up so this shouldn't come into play, but keep in mind that you cannot do yourself any good by staying on the phone with them.

6. Since you left the area before contacting the police, you can, and should, put your gun (unloaded) in plain view on the hood of your car and stepped away from it before they arrive. Don't put it IN your car, that subjects your car to a cursory search, your car should be LOCKED and parked legally.

7. You have nothing to "clear up" and no "side of the story" to tell. Your statement should be simple and very very brief.

I was driving home from work/school/etc. I was stopping to use the ATM when several (never give a number) threatening men demanded money from me and threatened my life. I drew my weapon and told them to leave me alone. When they attacked me, I shot at them.

never personalize it, like, "the guy in the white t-shirt came at me first, so I shot him" ALWAYS "they attacked me and I shot at THEM". If it's ONE guy, then it's easier.

this will not please the police officer, by now he's gotten the hint that you are NOT as cooperative victim. He's going to try to get more out of you, and at this point you have only ONE THING you need to ask for.

Medical help, you feel short of breath (you probably do) you feel dizzy and your left arm is aching. I dont care how young you are, you are dizzy and you ARE short of breath - it's the way adrenaline eliminates itself from your system. It causes narrow vision, blurry images, momentary deafness, vomiting and diarrhea. You DO need medical help. They cannot refuse your request, and in the face of this, to continue to question you shouldn't happen. While waiting for medical to arrive, the adrenaline will eliminate itself from your body and you can have a clearer head about what you need to say - which is "I think I need a lawyer before I talk to you". If he says you dont need one, then ask him if you are free to go - if you are NOT, then you must consider yourself under arrest (even though you aren't technically at this point).

There is absolutely NOTHING YOU CAN SAY that will make you look like a hero/victim in a self-defense situation. NOTHING. No matter how smart you think you are, when your words are read back to you in front of a jury I can guarantee you that you're going to regret saying them.

Cops are not your friend in this scenario. Never. They are "clean up" and aside from making sure nothing more bad happens, they are on a search for people to arrest. They often arrest BOTH parties in any kind of self-defense situation, dont count on a cop being sympathetic to you. A large segment of them actually believe that only cops have an absolute right to self-defense, yeah, no kidding. A citizen should "call 911" or "try to avoid trouble" or anything else. You dont know if this is the kind of cop you're talking to, so you should shut up.

Call someone to be with you at the crime scene, and immediately give them the key to your car. You should already have put your wallet in the car and any other things of a personal nature. If you're arrested the police CAN seize your car, in many cases as long as there is an adult there to take your car they will let them do it. Unless you like paying 300 dollars to get it out of impound. You do have to ID yourself to the police, but not law requires you to "produce ID". Just tell them your name, address and date of birth honestly and you're fine.

The police have a lifetime of indoctrination under YOUR belt. You went to school and learned that you had to have official permission to even go to the bathroom. You got a job and found that you had to tell the government about every penny you earned. You carefully measure the buttstock on that used shotgun you just bought, becaue if you're even 1/20th of an inch too short, you will go to prison and have your life's savings taken away. When you want to visit your grandmother you've also learned that you must submit yourself to someone groping your genetalia. You're already indoctrinated to "obey" authority. And the ultimate symbol of that authority is a police officer, you will almost WANT to talk to them at length. If they do the intimidation thing, well, most people cannot resist succumbing to the pressure - and while you're on adrenaline and potentially mentally injured? Forget it, you dont stand a chance. The deck is stacked against you. The chattiest person I ever got a statement out of was someone still high on adrenaline, a normally street-wise gangbanger talks AT LENGTH while under it's influence. Try to get them to even say "hi" an hour later and they'll just give you that blank empty stare they reserve for the police.
Your only chance to avoid their interrogation techniques is in asking for a lawyer, at that point if you've already identified yourself and your role in the incident - there is nothing more they can talk to you about concerning what happened. If they persist, start collecting business cards and ask for a supervisor. It WILL mark you out as "one of those people" (you know, those people who know their rights) and it wont make you any friends. But the last time I checked, no cop ever came forward to pay the defense costs of a citizen who defended themselves because they felt friendship for the citizen. You have no obligation to make that cops job one iota easier in this respect.

I DO understand the caveats that folks like Bailey's Guns post about asking your lawyer about this stuff, it keeps liability away. You should wield your lawyer like a weapon, carry his business card in your wallet and keep a spare in your car. Wave it around like a vorpal sword. You DONT have to have a lawyer under retainer to use his business card to cut off the police from talking to you.

While reading the statements about whether people should or should not be "required" to train, there is only ONE PLACE in the Bill of Rights that uses the language "Shall not be infringed", what part of that seems to allow the government to require ANYTHING?

[ChunkyMonkey]

Good write up. Thanks

[gnihcraes]

Call 911, tell them you have been the Innocent Victim of a crime, and where they need to arrive.

Massad Ayoob also says to do this when they arrive: Point out the person who attacked you, point out those who are witnesses, and that is about it I believe. I'll look for the video from Ayoob.

[Dusty Johnson]

I've been there, done that, too. Had to defend myself and had to face the aftermath.

My advice is thus.

1. There is no law saying you have to STAY in the area the attack took place in, in fact it's quite justifiable for you to drive to the nearest place of safety before calling the police. You're fleeing for your life, and you have NO obligation to inform the police that you just had to fire your weapon IMMEDIATELY. You need to un-ass the area til you feel safe.

2. There is no time to determine if you can flee, there just isn't. And the law in Colorado does not require you to do so. There is the "sufficient time for reflection" standard that I've seen used though. I would never ever indicate that I "made a decision that I could not flee".

3. The moment the police arrive, you ARE under arrest - consider that this is the case until you know otherwise. They can and WILL charge you weeks or months later with an offense if they want to (happened to me).

4. Say nothing. If you feel you have to call 911 to report something, then use the bad-guys phone, if the bad guy does not have one, drive to a payphone. Getting away means you avoid any followup attack, and you give yourself time to come down a bit from your adrenaline high, you'll be spouting like a geyser on the phone if you call in the immediate aftermath on a cell phone. If you MUST make that immediate call, then call 911, say there's been trouble at your location, ask for medical and police and hang up. You'll get an immediate call back, dont answer. You dont have to explain a damn thing about why you didn't answer, you're the victim of a violent attack, of course you were not capable of doing anything useful for quite a long while. People who act calm on a 911 call are suspect, people who blather on about the fight will have it used against them, people who try to communicate the maximum amount of information, again, are building a case against themselves.

5. Do not respond to any commands from a dispatcher. They are not a police officer, and they are not there. Again, you've already hung up so this shouldn't come into play, but keep in mind that you cannot do yourself any good by staying on the phone with them.

6. Since you left the area before contacting the police, you can, and should, put your gun (unloaded) in plain view on the hood of your car and stepped away from it before they arrive. Don't put it IN your car, that subjects your car to a cursory search, your car should be LOCKED and parked legally.

7. You have nothing to "clear up" and no "side of the story" to tell. Your statement should be simple and very very brief.

I was driving home from work/school/etc. I was stopping to use the ATM when several (never give a number) threatening men demanded money from me and threatened my life. I drew my weapon and told them to leave me alone. When they attacked me, I shot at them.

never personalize it, like, "the guy in the white t-shirt came at me first, so I shot him" ALWAYS "they attacked me and I shot at THEM". If it's ONE guy, then it's easier.

this will not please the police officer, by now he's gotten the hint that you are NOT as cooperative victim. He's going to try to get more out of you, and at this point you have only ONE THING you need to ask for.

Medical help, you feel short of breath (you probably do) you feel dizzy and your left arm is aching. I dont care how young you are, you are dizzy and you ARE short of breath - it's the way adrenaline eliminates itself from your system. It causes narrow vision, blurry images, momentary deafness, vomiting and diarrhea. You DO need medical help. They cannot refuse your request, and in the face of this, to continue to question you shouldn't happen. While waiting for medical to arrive, the adrenaline will eliminate itself from your body and you can have a clearer head about what you need to say - which is "I think I need a lawyer before I talk to you". If he says you dont need one, then ask him if you are free to go - if you are NOT, then you must consider yourself under arrest (even though you aren't technically at this point).

There is absolutely NOTHING YOU CAN SAY that will make you look like a hero/victim in a self-defense situation. NOTHING. No matter how smart you think you are, when your words are read back to you in front of a jury I can guarantee you that you're going to regret saying them.

Cops are not your friend in this scenario. Never. They are "clean up" and aside from making sure nothing more bad happens, they are on a search for people to arrest. They often arrest BOTH parties in any kind of self-defense situation, dont count on a cop being sympathetic to you. A large segment of them actually believe that only cops have an absolute right to self-defense, yeah, no kidding. A citizen should "call 911" or "try to avoid trouble" or anything else. You dont know if this is the kind of cop you're talking to, so you should shut up.

Call someone to be with you at the crime scene, and immediately give them the key to your car. You should already have put your wallet in the car and any other things of a personal nature. If you're arrested the police CAN seize your car, in many cases as long as there is an adult there to take your car they will let them do it. Unless you like paying 300 dollars to get it out of impound. You do have to ID yourself to the police, but not law requires you to "produce ID". Just tell them your name, address and date of birth honestly and you're fine.

The police have a lifetime of indoctrination under YOUR belt. You went to school and learned that you had to have official permission to even go to the bathroom. You got a job and found that you had to tell the government about every penny you earned. You carefully measure the buttstock on that used shotgun you just bought, becaue if you're even 1/20th of an inch too short, you will go to prison and have your life's savings taken away. When you want to visit your grandmother you've also learned that you must submit yourself to someone groping your genetalia. You're already indoctrinated to "obey" authority. And the ultimate symbol of that authority is a police officer, you will almost WANT to talk to them at length. If they do the intimidation thing, well, most people cannot resist succumbing to the pressure - and while you're on adrenaline and potentially mentally injured? Forget it, you dont stand a chance. The deck is stacked against you. The chattiest person I ever got a statement out of was someone still high on adrenaline, a normally street-wise gangbanger talks AT LENGTH while under it's influence. Try to get them to even say "hi" an hour later and they'll just give you that blank empty stare they reserve for the police.
Your only chance to avoid their interrogation techniques is in asking for a lawyer, at that point if you've already identified yourself and your role in the incident - there is nothing more they can talk to you about concerning what happened. If they persist, start collecting business cards and ask for a supervisor. It WILL mark you out as "one of those people" (you know, those people who know their rights) and it wont make you any friends. But the last time I checked, no cop ever came forward to pay the defense costs of a citizen who defended themselves because they felt friendship for the citizen. You have no obligation to make that cops job one iota easier in this respect.

I DO understand the caveats that folks like Bailey's Guns post about asking your lawyer about this stuff, it keeps liability away. You should wield your lawyer like a weapon, carry his business card in your wallet and keep a spare in your car. Wave it around like a vorpal sword. You DONT have to have a lawyer under retainer to use his business card to cut off the police from talking to you.

While reading the statements about whether people should or should not be "required" to train, there is only ONE PLACE in the Bill of Rights that uses the language "Shall not be infringed", what part of that seems to allow the government to require ANYTHING?

Would you be willing to tell us your story on how you had to defend yourself and what happened?

Thanks

[Irving]

If you do, put it in the thread I started about the time you came closest to shooting someone.

[rondog]

I'm old, I'm fat, I have two bad knees and a bad back. I can't run, and I can't fight young guys. But I DO carry a .45! "Getting jumped" by thugs could be fatal to me or leave me crippled, definitely have detrimental effects on my life. If anybody jumps me, they'd better run like hell when Mr. Loudmouth appears, or their momma's gonna be cryin'. I'm no badass, but if I'm threatened I'm not gonna fuck around. I'll fight until I can fire, and if I have to fire I'm not stopping until the BG's are down.

[rockhound]

I am not a large man either, that being said i have had some martial arts training off and on as well as I am no pu..y, I am not afraid of many people and have backed off many a loud mouth ahole with just my attitude, most recently over christmas, a guy that was threatening my mother's husband, he is 73. (yes technically my step father, but I have already had two dads and don't need a third)

when i am out and about I am generally with my family, a shoot no shoot scenarios such as this one is a no brainer for me. one guy three guys makes no difference. they are approaching myself and or my kids and wife, they will back off or die.

the threat to my family is more than enough justification in my mind to use any force necessary.

[banks74]

If you have your CCW, you should have gone through many many scenarios and legal circumstances with your instructor as Byte mentioned. It's almost scary to see this kind of question being thrown around in this section.

Agreed. Not all training is equal. Kinda tough for a couple hour class to cover all the intricacies of the law.

Hands down best class I took about the OP's question was Southnarks. Bust out the Fist helmets and the Sim guns and do some role playing. Learned a lot just by watching others cycle through the drills.