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While that appears to make sense, it isn't written in statute as a lawful reason for ownership, nor as an affirmative defense.Originally Posted by Elhuero
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
The "One Armed Man" exemption is an affirmative defense under the federal "Switchblade Act" providing the blade is no longer than 3".
I'm not sure how or if that carries over to state law, but any cop or prosecutor who wants to harass a disabled person who owns a pocket sized OTF (originally patented as a safety knife) may need to consider another career.
It is interesting that it is codified in the Title 15, Commerce and Trade, section of the U.S.C. and not in the criminal code, Title 18 U.S.C.
And it isn't an affirmative defense; it is simply a non-applicability. An affirmative defense is brought up to the court once charges have already been placed in court.
Personally, I would agree with you in your assessment of bothering a disabled person carrying such a knife.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Wow...
Quite the can o' worms we opened here!
I offer a big THANK YOU to everyone that's replied, particularly OneGuy67 for his insights as an LEO.
Regarding the question of the hugely popular assisted-openers...
Already said I'm no lawyer or LEO, but every interpretation I've found agrees with OneGuy67's. In nearly every state that has legislation about switchblades/automatic knives, there's some kind of similar wording about pressing a button, a lever, or some other kind of acutator that's not part of or attached to the blade itself. In the 80s knives with thumb studs and Spydercos exploded; the industry recognized the desire to at least be able to open a knife with one hand, and ways to do it legally. The current assisted openers are imho something of a loophole in the wording of the laws, but don't meet the existing definitions since there's no button, lever etc. Here's something related I just found:
http://www.kniferights.org/index.php...=76&Itemid=150 [Thanks to StagLefty for reminding me about blade forums! /facepalm]
Then there are the "wave" openers or whatever they're called, too... with that scoop shape on the spine that you can catch on your pocket during the draw. No button, no lever, not even a spring... hmm.
Clint45 - I won't ask you to confirm you're LEO, judge, lawyer etc. on a public forum, but your statements have a ring of experience to them. Your last two are a good example of what I've heard about Denver being more strict, though it's good to hear about the dismissals.
A question I have back (to all) about the first part:
- Is fear of running into a mountain lion... or a bear, some psycho, a weed growing operation, maybe a really scary spider... a reasonable explanation for carrying a larger blade, say in a place where firearms are forbidden? I think several of the popular parks fall into that category, and I know of one up in Evergreen that explicitly bans CHP too. I just wanna know that I'm legit if I wear my Campanion on the trails... crikey, has the word "camp" in its name!
I fully understand this is "unofficial", and your input is much appreciated sir, as is your service. I figured about the butterfly knives... any input about whether they're affected by the 3.5" definition? I'm thinking one might not be a "Knife" as defined in C.R.S. above, so is it even still a "gravity knife"? I know, I'm getting way too detailed probably... I do that, especially in Hypothetical Land.
<--- those are just big assisted-openers
Last edited by chrisguy; 01-12-2011 at 22:49. Reason: assisted ninja
By the strictest interpretation of the statute, anything with a blade length over 3.5 inches is illegal.I fully understand this is "unofficial", and your input is much appreciated sir, as is your service. I figured about the butterfly knives... any input about whether they're affected by the 3.5" definition? I'm thinking one might not be a "Knife" as defined in C.R.S. above, so is it even still a "gravity knife"? I know, I'm getting way too detailed probably... I do that, especially in Hypothetical Land.
CRS 18-12-101(e) defines a gravity knife as "means any knife that has a blade released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force." ~ thus your butterfly knife that is opened by flicking it around and using centrifugal force to manipulate its opening (or its cutting you if the blade is reversed by accident).
Conversely, CRS 18-12-101 (f) defines a knife as "any dagger, dirk, knife, or stilletto with a blade over three and one-half inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a hunting or a fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative defense." They have charged people with using a screwdriver under this statute as the instrument stabbed and tore wounds.
I do believe that you would not have any problems if you are carrying your Campanion knife and contacted by park rangers, law enforcement, etc. and you articulate the reason for carrying it, which sounded pretty rational to me.
However, as with anything ever discussed here on this forum, there are those officers who are new, who are ignorant, who are fearful, who are plain dumb, that may question your carrying of such a blade length. I'm sure they are out there somewhere. As much as I try to educate officers I come across who's training is lacking, there are too many out there, too many new ones coming in and too many hypothetical situations to try to get them to reason through.
I apologize for my profession.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
I carry a knife with a 5" blade in my car as a part of my little BOB. It is usually in my passenger compartment. Will that ever be an issue?
"There are no finger prints under water."
a fawk I just cut myself!
How long was the blade? Was the blade assisted, button or lever activated?a fawk I just cut myself!
Just saying.
Is the fact that there is no such thing as centrifugal force defensible in court?
"There are no finger prints under water."
Another LE opinion
First a story... I had my gun seized as potential evidence in a case that was dropped. I went to retrieve it from Jeffco SO and asked for the ammunition that was in the gun too. The property clerk smirked at me and said that they dont return ammunition EVER. I asked why and he gave me some excuse about not wanting to get shot. So I asked him if it were legal for me to carry openly/loaded and he said yes. With the smirk still on his face, I pushed the backup mag into the gun, loaded it and put it in my holster and smirked right back at him.
Ted Mink is VERY anti civilian in the sense that he doesn't think that we have inherent rights to self-defense, he was an elitist about this back then (only LEO's have the right to carry a gun) back when I had dealings with him and his personality, from stories I have heard, hasn't changed according to deputies and others I've talked to. So the deputy taking your knife and forcing you to go to the SO to pick it up, is PROBABLY an internal policy that Mink set up to mess with people. There is no law that says a temporarily seized item cannot be returned to a person after it has been found that there is no reason to arrest them. Sounds like "Minks Law".
All that being said, I'm LE (but as you have guessed NOT for Jeffco). The state law is pretty generic, in the sense that it mirrors language that came about circa 1968 when a generic set of weapons laws were adopted by MOST states in response to civils rights rioting after the murder of MLK, we owe, in part, many of our weapons laws to a racist knee-jerk reaction to those times. It also gave us the GCA of 1968 (backed by the NRA even) that kept a poor black man in Mississippi from buying an inexpensive rifle from a mail order company in another state, if he wanted a gun he had to buy it from a locally licensed dealer - and you can be sure the color of your skin counted in whether or not they'd sell you a gun to defend yourself from the Klan. The arbitrary length and switchblade thing came with that territory. ARgh, I almost went on a rant there... back on topic...
You don't have to worry too much about state law, what you have to worry about is Municipal Code. And you don't need to be a city or town to have a municipal code, a few counties use them too. Because we are "home rule" city's can and do pass more restrictive laws that are more restrictive than state limits.
You can see if your municipality uses a particularly POPULAR form of municipal code by checking at www.municode.com. They are like Lexis/Nexus in the sense that they actually have copyright to the code, and the municipalities actually LEASE the use of the majority of the code from the company. They also put in the individual codes adopted by various city council's or whatever.
If you do not find your city listed there, it does not mean your city doesn't have it's own municipal code covering you, they might have just written their own.
Why use municipal code? The answer is very very obvious. Money.
Let's say I write a ticket to a driver for a traffic offense and I use a county form to do it. If they are found guilty the fine gets split between the city I work for and the county it was written in. Way back when, in response to municipalities wanting more control over the fine money, the state legislature published something called the "Model Traffic Code" and it was essentially a copy of state motor vehicle laws that a city could adopt and use for it's own court system. It does not, in general, cover commercial vehicle stuff like semi's and hazmat. If you have a ticket issued by a city in Colorado, the citation of the violation will most likely start with "MTC-..." that stands for Model Traffic Code. If you get a ticket from the State Patrol or a regular county deputy, it most likely says, "CRS-..." or Colorado Revised Statutes. The city uses the "model traffic code" to prosecute people in their own municipal court and the city gets to keep 100 percent of the fine money, they don't have to share. MOST city's have adopted copies of most minor crimes (and some major ones) into their municipal code, again, because they get to keep all the money. For some cities, like Denver or Aurora or Lakewood, this fine money is a SIGNIFICANT source of income for the city. The only rule is that the maximum fine is 1000 bucks and/or 1 year in jail.
The City of Denver, for instance, has banned folding knives that can be (and I'm quoting here)
"opened with a flick of a finger".
Don't hop on how that's terribly vague - it IS vague. Officers in many jurisdictions can/will charge you with something simply because while they will SAY there is not a "quota" having to do with tickets, if an officer isn't "productive" he gets into trouble - how to tell if a cop is productive? How many municipal code tickets has he written? Don't break the law, and if you are legal in your locality, it doesn't mean that if you walk into downtown denver with your 4 inch folder you will still be legal. This was part of the big stink about CCW laws, in that Denver claimed that they could restrict CCW further than the state did, there was a big court battle over this - think "preemption". So while you're good with your pistol after they lost, nobody is going to pass a "Universal Knife" act and fight the same battle for your pocketknife.
I've always thought that there should be a section in the POST training currriculum that addressed municipal code, but there's not. County deputy sheriff's generally are ignorant of municipal code and it's ramifications (because they use the county court for their tickets). A municipal code violation for assault is CALLED a "code violation" (like a lawnmowing ticket) but it's reported the same to the CBI and FBI as a violent crime.
And in case you're wondering, YES, you can get a "ticket" for something like burglary - without being arrested and booked. Doesn't mean you dont go to court ultimately, but you dont get booked, which also means the officer doesn't have to waste two hours processing you at the jail, he can move on to write more cash producing tickets for his city. It also affects the FBI's crime index - careful tweaking of WHAT you charge someone with and your crime stats go down. One great variance with state code is the assault statute. According to state law there is no such thing as "battery" there is only assault, the intent or stated intent to harm someone is generally covered under "harassment". But in most muni codes you're find an "assault and battery" definition. Assault being the attempt or stated intent to do harm, and battery being the actual harm. I hate that by the way, threatening to "kick someone's ass" is actually assault... We get these definitions via the municode.com team, culling only the finest and picayune of the laws from major city's, we get them in a nice lump sum that isn't even addressed in state statute.
Don't count on the kindness of a cop in a city keeping you out of trouble just because you are a "good guy" - that spyderco police model you carry? It's considered an illegal weapon, and can be worth up to $1,000 to the city that prosecutes you for it's possession. Then you're stuck with a "weapons violation" and the sheriff pulls your CCW. Don't risk it.
Last edited by ldmaster; 01-12-2011 at 00:46.
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