Utah Man Shot to Death by Police for Raising a Golf Club...

[Zundfolge]

It wasn't intended that way but it happened.

I'm not convinced of that.


As for the officer that did the shooting, I think he should be at least on desk duty if not fired, but I'm not even going to go so far as to say he should be in jail ... the policy of conducting any form of no-knock raid put this officer in the position where he shot a man he claims he thought had a sword.

Except for a situation where someone's life is in immediate danger, there is just zero reason I can think of that a no-knock raid is called for.

Loss of evidence? Keeping someone from buying/selling/using drugs? Neither is worth the shredding of the 4th Amendment. Neither is worth turning our police into military style special forces operators (which violates the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act if not the letter).

[TFOGGER]

A Libertarian magazine, http://reason.com/ has kept track of botched no knock raids. There have been too many with incorrect addresses and bad data.

Suppose this happened in Colorado. How many posters here keep loaded guns in the house? How many would use them to defend their family if intruders burst into the house?

I think the War on Drugs has been a actually a war on the constitution. It wasn't intended that way but it happened. I think a pretty good argument could be made that we have lost this war and should cut our losses.

Steve

This HAS happened in Colorado, and it's cost 2 men their lives, and the citizens of Denver millions of dollars....

1st one I remember was a no knock on the wrong address, they shot the homeowner as he walked out of a bedroom, 2nd was when they shot a man with a coke can in his hand while he was lying in bed.

[OneGuy67]

This HAS happened in Colorado, and it's cost 2 men their lives, and the citizens of Denver millions of dollars....

1st one I remember was a no knock on the wrong address, they shot the homeowner as he walked out of a bedroom, 2nd was when they shot a man with a coke can in his hand while he was lying in bed.

The first you refer to is Ismael Mena and was a wrong address on the warrant as the DPD officer took the word of his informant as to the address of the house and didn't check for himself, nor did he adequately describe the residence as required.

The second wasn't a warrant intrusion. The officer gained entry into the residence through an upstairs window and surprised/was surprised by the shooting victim, Frank Lobato. The call was a domestic violence call and Lobato was not the suspect.

[BigMat]

Loss of evidence? Keeping someone from buying/selling/using drugs? Neither is worth the shredding of the 4th Amendment. Neither is worth turning our police into military style special forces operators (which violates the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act if not the letter).

AGREED!

personally I think this whole business is really pushing the limits of the law, and not for search and seizure reasons.

I am/was friends with more than a few cops and I feel that a lot of PDs and most importantly SWAT is becoming very militaristic, taking ranking, equipment, sharing in training, many don't even refer to themselves as civilians anymore. Its much too close to US military acting on US soil.

No knock raids have no reason to exist outside of hostage situations, period, if you can't nail a jerk with the drugs, more police work, get him later, turn off the water, I don't care, but one dead innocent man is unacceptable and at this point there is a lot of blood on the wrong hands. It is not just hurting innocents, it is hurting PDs because perfectly law abiding citizens don't trust police anymore, that is terrible.

[Elhuero]

I'm a little torn on this. I watched the video and read the far more comprehensive version of events from the SLC Tribune.

There is no excuse for the sloppy police work that led up to the execution of the warrant.

I also disagree with the no-knock warrant in this instance, as I do in most instances. I have issues, myself, with the so-called "war on drugs", it's effectiveness and cost to society. So I'm disappointed a no-knock warrant was used in this particular case.

Having said all that, when the officers entered, the officer who fired said he thought the object held by Blair may have been a sword. And they were only about 8' apart...not 20. The officer who fired was the first through the door and had moved to the right after advancing into the home. I can't really fault him for firing in this case.

Of course, without the warrant, whether or not he should have fired would've been a moot point.

It's very tragic anyway you look at it. But, given the circumstances, I agree the shooting itself (discounting all other factors) was justified. Judging the shooting in light of the totality of the circumstances is a different matter.

you have GOT to be kidding me.



here's hoping they don't mess up and no-knock my address.

[BushMasterBoy]

Another American unjustly executed...whats new? Too bad it wasn't a federal judge or a congress member, that is the only way this thuggery is going to stop.
Makes me want to build a bomb proof bunker and stay inside where it is safe from the government!

[BigMat]

I also don't think the cop should be off the hook for something like this! In any other career, if you do something that takes another persons life or even just breaks the law, you are responsible.

As an EMT and now nursing student if I screw up and give meds, even in they are prescribed by a doc, but poorly or in error, its my ass too, end of story. Maybe not jail, but I for sure am not a nurse anymore and beyond a shadow of a doubt I am getting tagged with a big old law suit. If I chrashed my box into someone, code three call or not, I could promise you I was in trouble.

If you are going to carry a gun you are responsible for where the bullets land, that is a choice you make. The law should apply equally to all in this country, that is a big part of what keeps us free.

[Elhuero]

maybe the backlash has already started


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41235743...ime_and_courts

[Byte Stryke]

I Honestly do not feel that the illegal execution of an unlawful entry can be followed by a justified shooting.

So what you are saying is, if at 2am a bunch of storm troopers confused your address with a meth lab and raided your house, you wouldn't try to protect your home as a law abiding citizen?
So your Widow and Orphans will just fend for themselves in the streets?
Because if you are killed by police in a "Clean Shoot" you do know most life insurances will not pay as obviously you had committed an act that voluntarily perpetuated your own death.
I believe the common term is "PD Suicide."

Unless you have a warrant and present it upon entry, you are in violation of the fourth. Thus your illegal entry will be seen as a threat to the safety and welfare of my family and you will be fired upon with extreme prejudice.

CHP/CCW regardless
Come take the guns and I will stab you in the damned neck with a butter knife. I am really sick of the Gestapo tactics and double standards by the Police.


Just my two cents

[OneGuy67]

I Honestly do not feel that the illegal execution of an unlawful entry can be followed by a justified shooting.

Byte, what was illegal? They had a search warrant signed by a judge. Even if they had it on scene at the time, they aren't going to wave it around while executing a rapid entry. It is usually something handed to the resident once the residence and its occupants are secured.