Originally Posted by OneGuy67
ugh. I'm done here. I don't want to argue.
Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums
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Welcome to the Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums.
ugh. I'm done here. I don't want to argue.
well hell lets just search now and worry about the warrant later... I'll take your word for it.
what if you were the shooter? Knowing you had taken the life of an innocent man startled from his sleep by a wrongful entry? he wasn't a drug dealer... he was an innocent man facing a breach of his home.
warrant? yeah we will get that later... trust me.
Show me in a single term how a "no knock raid" doesn't violate reasonable search and seizure.
Justify to me the reasoning why you cannot knock on the door with the building surrounded. whats he going to do? take his family hostage? weigh that against some gestapo ass-clowns killing a little kid and me paying higher taxes for it for the next 80 years when the PD gets sued into bankruptcy
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
take your "Oh, its totally legal" Attitude and check it against the civil rights.
No knock raids have NO PLACE in a civil and constitutional country.
Whoa! Gettin' some attitude. I asked simply what was illegal. They had a legal warrant at the time of the execution, not after. They had a judges permission to search the home. There was no search now and get a warrant later. His innocence? According to the reports, he wasn't innocent, although he may not have been a dealer. He may have been simply a user, but drugs were dealt out of the house, either by him or his girlfriend who lived with him.
My "Oh, its totally legal" attitude as you state is pretty misguided. Where in the what, three posts I put on this did I say anything at all about it being "totally legal" or that I agreed with the no-knock premise? During the two years I was assigned to the DEA drug task force, we never did a no-knock warrant. They are difficult to get and you have to provide a lot of good reasons why the judge should allow one.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Everything that needs to be said has been covered already.
There is a HUGE disconnect here though. Warrants are for search and seizure right? Or is the killing of people some where in the small print?
Didn't a lady shot at some officers that were conducting a no-knock raid on the wrong house get charged? While every time a person is killed in botched no-knock didn't get any charges at all? Ever?
"There are no finger prints under water."
There isn't a disconnect. SEARCH warrants are for the search of items that are stolen or embezzled, are designed or intended for use as a means of committing a criminal offense or have been used for committing a criminal offense, are illegal to possess, would be material evidence in a subsequent criminal prosecution or is a person, property or thing the seizure of which is expressly required, authorized or permitted by statute of the State of Colorado or is kept, stored, transported, sold, dispensed or possessed in violation of a statute of of the State of Colorado under circumstances involving a serious threat to public safety, or order, or to the public health. These are the things that can authorize a search warrant by a judge, here in Colorado.
You are associating the two together into one issue and it isn't. An officer may use deadly force if he feels there is a threat to himself or to others. Executing a search warrant is one thing. Being threatened and defending yourself is another. The issue presented here is whether or not the officer was being threatened or felt threatened and had a right of self defense to use deadly force. Lots and lots of search warrants are executed without any issues daily that you don't hear about. Some are as Byte describes and asks about, some are more dynamic, some are extremely mundane.
I can't speak for your first example as I've not heard of any such circumstances here in Colorado, but the second one, there were officers charged, I believe in Atlanta, over a botched no-knock. Although I get a number of police related periodicals, magazines, and emails relating to these out of state events, I don't really follow them too closely because they don't have an effect here in Colorado for Colorado law enforcment.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Why don't you try actually understanding the point I was trying to make.
I was referring to only the circumstances in which the shooting took place. Not the circumstances that lead to the shooting. You have a:And apparently the DA agrees.
- dynamic entry
- in low light
- with unknown person rushing into view
- and holding unknown shiny item that appeared to the shooter to possibly be a deadly weapon
- which it potentially was
- and he was in dangerously close proximity to the officer
Now, the whole thing, no-knock warrant and all that BS that lead up to the above circumstances...different story.
And that's why I wrote I agree the shooting itself (discounting all other factors) was justified.(Emphasis yours)
Stella - my best girl ever.
11/04/1994 - 12/23/2010
Don't wanna get shot by the police?
"Stop Resisting Arrest!"
Exactly. Given ONLY the issue of self-defense in this case, with the circumstances presented to the officer I believe he was justified in shooting to protect himself and others.
A civil court will decide on whether or not they should have been there in the first place and whether the resulting death was justified or not in light of the sloppy police work that lead to the shooting.
In my opinion they shouldn't have been there under those circumstances.
Stella - my best girl ever.
11/04/1994 - 12/23/2010
Don't wanna get shot by the police?
"Stop Resisting Arrest!"
One question for OneGuy67:
If someone kicks your door in at 2 AM, and comes into the house shouting unintelligibly, how would you respond?
I know for damn sure my first response would not be to fall face first on the floor and put my hands on the back of my head.
No knock warrants SHOULD be all but impossible to obtain. Execution of them presents an extreme level of danger for both the officers and the subjects, particularly when the intel used to issue them is suspect (Israel Mena).
I know full well that I'm mixing the two issues. I'm purposely doing it because they are intermingled in real life. No-knock raids are kind of like that quantum theory analogy about the cat inside the box.
You have a car inside a sealed box. You want to know if it is dead or alive. You can't observe the cat without directly affecting the experiment. Is the cat dead, or is the cat alive? The answer is "Yes."
You are about to kick down the door on an unsuspecting person. Do they have a gun they are going to threaten you with? Are they asleep and not immediately endangering anyone? The answer is "Yes."
All lame attempts at connecting quantum theories with no-knock raids, your life is ALWAYS threatened if you are invading another person's property/personal space. Police officers have the right to kill anyone they perceive as a threat, at all times, under any circumstances, with little to no consequences. With that set-up, disaster is inevitable and it shouldn't be.
"There are no finger prints under water."
I actually agree with Bailey that given just the situation that the cop was put in, I'm not surprised that he shot. Put a guy in a shitty situation, don't be surprised when you get a shitty outcome. I'd lay the blame more on the person who allowed this situation to take place at all.
"There are no finger prints under water."
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