Utah Man Shot to Death by Police for Raising a Golf Club...

[OneGuy67]

So I Will ask again,


How am I to know that my right to defend my home against intrusion has been revoked for a no knock raid?



I believe this is a Police-state tactic.

"Well we broke into his home in the middle of the night screaming, unannounced, he should have known!"

I Still do not buy it and think that short of absolute proof of some sort of large scale destructive device... knock on the fucking door and serve the warrant first.

Truthfully and I'm really not being sarcastic...don't do anything like selling drugs out of your house that would cause you to be on the police radar. It becomes a police state when normal, law abiding citizens are having their doors caved in and not just those who are involved in activities THAT ARE CRIMINAL.

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.

[Marlin]

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.

Not all are. But, the ones that are, and do, need to be delt with severly, and not Protected at all costs by the union. Because, Like everything else, there are just some people who should not be cops.

[OneGuy67]

Not all are. But, the ones that are, and do, need to be delt with severly, and not Protected at all costs by the union. Because, Like everything else, there are just some people who should not be cops.

I don't disagree Marlin. However, when one uses the term 'union', one must believe all cops are part of a union, which implies a traditional union one thinks of when thinking of General Motors. Police unions are big...back east where unions are big. West of the Mississippi river, law enforcement unions are not what they are back east.

Other than the Denver PPA, Aurora, Pueblo and possibly Colo Spgs (there may be a few more, but I don't keep track of all agencies for that reason), most law enforcement officers belong to their local FOP lodge, which provides nothing other than legal representation funding assistance. Most law enforcement agencies do not have collective bargaining rights or contracts for service.

Like all citizens in this country, officers should be allowed to be represented by an attorney to ensure they receive a fair shake by the system, whether it be the criminal justice system or the city or county or state personnel system. That is what most FOP lodges pay for. Given most do not have collective bargaining or a seat at the table, they cannot argue for the retention or the dismissal of an individual officer.

I agree with you on the premise there are people who should not be cops. My police academy graduated 30 people and only 18 or so of us got jobs. Out of that 18, only about 10 are still on the job after nearly 20 years. Some got out for disciplinary issues, some for family issues, some just didn't like the job.

I also agree that those agencies who do have a seat at the table do protect the bad eggs (Denver PD) and that needs to stop. The only way it will is a revocation of the collective bargaining rights. I sincerely don't know how that would be done in Denver, but other agencies have gotten their citizens to vote to allow them collective bargaining rights and the citizens there could revoke them as well.

[68Charger]

Truthfully and I'm really not being sarcastic...don't do anything like selling drugs out of your house that would cause you to be on the police radar. It becomes a police state when normal, law abiding citizens are having their doors caved in and not just those who are involved in activities THAT ARE CRIMINAL.

This assumes that warrants are always issued on factual information, and no mistakes are ever made... Police are human, and subject to mistakes. Execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house (for various reasons- wrong address, bad intel, etc) and it could happen to an innocent person... or maybe there are innocent visitors present?

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.

Or the assumption that all suspects are guilty?

I'm not "worried" about it happening to me, not much point in that- if it did, it would probably be a couple/few of my dogs that would be shot first...

[OneGuy67]

This assumes that warrants are always issued on factual information, and no mistakes are ever made... Police are human, and subject to mistakes. Execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house (for various reasons- wrong address, bad intel, etc) and it could happen to an innocent person... or maybe there are innocent visitors present?

Once again, there is the belief the cops are lying on affidavits to the judges or mistakes are made that show officers to be grossly incompetent. Really? You do realize the level of trouble an officer can get into if a judge finds out you lied on and swore to a false affidavit? Mistakes can and do happen and I know of one search warrant in Durango that one of my co-workers was associated with, but did not engage or participate in the execution of that was the wrong house. The house was correctly identified in the warrant, but the officers went to the wrong house. Cost that agency about $20,000. Rightly so.

However, search warrants and their executions are like plane crashes in that there are a thousands of flights every day that take off and land without incident, but the one that doesn't makes the news and causes unneccesary concern over airplane safety.

As for suspects being guilty? Generally speaking, yes. If I, through my extensive years of experience and training, identify you as being the suspect of a crime and I present a case to the DA's office indicating that, in my mind, you are guilty. Whether or not that plays out in a court is another thing. I cannot control what the DA decides to prosecute or not.

[68Charger]

Once again, there is the belief the cops are lying on affidavits to the judges or mistakes are made that show officers to be grossly incompetent. Really? You do realize the level of trouble an officer can get into if a judge finds out you lied on and swore to a false affidavit? Mistakes can and do happen and I know of one search warrant in Durango that one of my co-workers was associated with, but did not engage or participate in the execution of that was the wrong house. The house was correctly identified in the warrant, but the officers went to the wrong house. Cost that agency about $20,000. Rightly so.

I think you're a little overly sensitive here- I never said, or even directly implied that I believe an officer would deliberately lie to get a warrant... and I certainly didn't use phrases even remotely like "grossly incompetent" Could they be lied to? Could he/she use the below assumption of guilt to jump to conclusions he/she shouldn't? They're human, after all...

As for suspects being guilty? Generally speaking, yes. If I, through my extensive years of experience and training, identify you as being the suspect of a crime and I present a case to the DA's office indicating that, in my mind, you are guilty. Whether or not that plays out in a court is another thing. I cannot control what the DA decides to prosecute or not.

This kind of thinking can incrementally lead to a lapse in judgment that could get an innocent person killed... The road to hell is paved with good intentions... stack up a few smaller mistakes made in different places, even by different people, and you get a travesty of justice.

I'm not trying to lecture, or bash... just debating...

[OneGuy67]

I think you're a little overly sensitive here- I never said, or even directly implied that I believe an officer would deliberately lie to get a warrant... and I certainly didn't use phrases even remotely like "grossly incompetent" Could they be lied to? Could he/she use the below assumption of guilt to jump to conclusions he/she shouldn't? They're human, after all...

This kind of thinking can incrementally lead to a lapse in judgment that could get an innocent person killed... The road to hell is paved with good intentions... stack up a few smaller mistakes made in different places, even by different people, and you get a travesty of justice.

I'm not trying to lecture, or bash... just debating...

No, I'm not being overly sensitive. I do tire of the police bash mentality that is presented here most days. Our bigger bashers haven't really commented on the thread; they must be busy. Most don't pass the opportunity to take a swipe at the cops here.

"Grossly incompetent" are my words and weren't a phrase taken from you.

Officers could certainly be lied to. Happens every day, all day. People on this forum advocate the lying to cops in everyday contacts with them. The thing is, you can't go to a judge and say "Judge, I need a warrant to search 68Charger's home because Irving told me he might have some heroin." You have to do some legwork; you have show how the information is accurate, how the residence is involved, how the suspect is known, what actions prompted a reasonable person to believe the suspect is involved in the criminal activity, how accurate information provided to you in the past from this informant is, etc. Otherwise, any idiot with a vendetta could get the police to search or arrest people they don't like.

My kind of thinking is how law enforcement operates. You identify a suspect through the evidence and you present a case to the DA. Every case I present to the DA for prosecution, I KNOW the suspect is guilty of the crime(s). I not only meet my required threshold of 'probable cause', but I meet the DA's threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

I'm trying to educate, not bash.

[StagLefty]

We all know Irving is a poser-he never has the heroin he says he has or 68charger has

[68Charger]

No, I'm not being overly sensitive. I do tire of the police bash mentality that is presented here most days. Our bigger bashers haven't really commented on the thread; they must be busy. Most don't pass the opportunity to take a swipe at the cops here.

fair enough, it's the internet- but not everyone presenting an opposing viewpoint is attacking you...

"Grossly incompetent" are my words and weren't a phrase taken from you.

Officers could certainly be lied to. Happens every day, all day. People on this forum advocate the lying to cops in everyday contacts with them. The thing is, you can't go to a judge and say "Judge, I need a warrant to search 68Charger's home because Irving told me he might have some heroin." You have to do some legwork; you have show how the information is accurate, how the residence is involved, how the suspect is known, what actions prompted a reasonable person to believe the suspect is involved in the criminal activity, how accurate information provided to you in the past from this informant is, etc. Otherwise, any idiot with a vendetta could get the police to search or arrest people they don't like.

I understand, which is why I make the comment about incremental mistakes...multiple small mistakes could lead to a bad warrant execution... they may be uncommon, but watching the video is disturbing if you put yourself (but not as a criminal) in his shoes...
Between that, and some LEO's comments here that they feel it was a good shoot, and I want to beef up security- not because I have anything to hide, but because I'd rather make sure I KNOW it's the police, no-knock warrant or not. With all the chaos during such an event, and with the dogs that I have, chances are I'd be holding a weapon when the door broke down- not sure I could drop it quick enough to ID the invaders as police before they shoot me.

My kind of thinking is how law enforcement operates. You identify a suspect through the evidence and you present a case to the DA. Every case I present to the DA for prosecution, I KNOW the suspect is guilty of the crime(s). I not only meet my required threshold of 'probable cause', but I meet the DA's threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

I'm trying to educate, not bash.

You're identifying your level of conviction/resolve at the time of prosecution- AFTER you've already executed the warrant, and acquired the evidence from the search... just sayin'...
I could play 'what if', but I think you'll get where I'm coming from...

[Irving]

Couple things here.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that no-knock raids can only be served during certain day light hours? Don't the police usually kick down doors at like 7:01am? If this is true, then there is a pretty clear cut answer to the question of "What do you do if someone kicks down your door at 2:00am. OneGuy can probably clarify this for us.

2) So it's okay for the trained officer to mistake a golf club for a sword and take a minor criminal's life, but it's not okay for the criminal to raise a golf club at a stranger/s breaking into his house unexpectedly? Let's try to keep things in perspective here. Mistakes were potentially made on both sides, but only the officer is excused? The other guy died and no big deal because he might have "made a bad decision?"

3) Oneguy: I'm sorry I can't find a better example, as I'm sure this is only a partial story, as was pointed out in the thread. However, I submit this link as an answer to the statement that you can't just tell a judge some made up BS and get a warrant. You weren't here the last time I posted it. I think the important stuff starts happening around page 5 or so. I don't post there any more. I'd at least like your opinion about it. I don't think he was ever charged with anything and don't really remember.
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/t...highlight=swat