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Colorado AR-15 Shooters Club Discussion Forums
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Originally Posted by Marlin
I don't disagree Marlin. However, when one uses the term 'union', one must believe all cops are part of a union, which implies a traditional union one thinks of when thinking of General Motors. Police unions are big...back east where unions are big. West of the Mississippi river, law enforcement unions are not what they are back east.
Other than the Denver PPA, Aurora, Pueblo and possibly Colo Spgs (there may be a few more, but I don't keep track of all agencies for that reason), most law enforcement officers belong to their local FOP lodge, which provides nothing other than legal representation funding assistance. Most law enforcement agencies do not have collective bargaining rights or contracts for service.
Like all citizens in this country, officers should be allowed to be represented by an attorney to ensure they receive a fair shake by the system, whether it be the criminal justice system or the city or county or state personnel system. That is what most FOP lodges pay for. Given most do not have collective bargaining or a seat at the table, they cannot argue for the retention or the dismissal of an individual officer.
I agree with you on the premise there are people who should not be cops. My police academy graduated 30 people and only 18 or so of us got jobs. Out of that 18, only about 10 are still on the job after nearly 20 years. Some got out for disciplinary issues, some for family issues, some just didn't like the job.
I also agree that those agencies who do have a seat at the table do protect the bad eggs (Denver PD) and that needs to stop. The only way it will is a revocation of the collective bargaining rights. I sincerely don't know how that would be done in Denver, but other agencies have gotten their citizens to vote to allow them collective bargaining rights and the citizens there could revoke them as well.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Once again, there is the belief the cops are lying on affidavits to the judges or mistakes are made that show officers to be grossly incompetent. Really? You do realize the level of trouble an officer can get into if a judge finds out you lied on and swore to a false affidavit? Mistakes can and do happen and I know of one search warrant in Durango that one of my co-workers was associated with, but did not engage or participate in the execution of that was the wrong house. The house was correctly identified in the warrant, but the officers went to the wrong house. Cost that agency about $20,000. Rightly so.
However, search warrants and their executions are like plane crashes in that there are a thousands of flights every day that take off and land without incident, but the one that doesn't makes the news and causes unneccesary concern over airplane safety.
As for suspects being guilty? Generally speaking, yes. If I, through my extensive years of experience and training, identify you as being the suspect of a crime and I present a case to the DA's office indicating that, in my mind, you are guilty. Whether or not that plays out in a court is another thing. I cannot control what the DA decides to prosecute or not.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
I think you're a little overly sensitive here- I never said, or even directly implied that I believe an officer would deliberately lie to get a warrant... and I certainly didn't use phrases even remotely like "grossly incompetent" Could they be lied to? Could he/she use the below assumption of guilt to jump to conclusions he/she shouldn't? They're human, after all...
This kind of thinking can incrementally lead to a lapse in judgment that could get an innocent person killed... The road to hell is paved with good intentions... stack up a few smaller mistakes made in different places, even by different people, and you get a travesty of justice.
I'm not trying to lecture, or bash... just debating...
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ, we are the III%, CIP2, and some other catchphrase meant to aggravate progreSSives who are hell bent on taking rights away...
Wow, I get busy in school again, and I miss out on pages of a thread like this. So, OK...
The 21' rule is if your gun is holstered, period.
Posse Comitatus has NOTHING to do with this warrant, scenario, act, shooting, politics of it, the basis of the act itself or should have never even been mentioned in this thread. Having been a Federal Agent for the Air Force, and a degree in criminal Justice, I'm thinking I have a better grasp on this than whoever mentioned it before; unless you've got Judege advocate time under your belt.
I've never seen a ninja suit with the word POLICE in blazing yellow on it before... Guess I missed that Terintino movie or something. Also, they didn't willy-nilly their self-identification in the video either. I'm pretty sure they were police, and pretty sure they were executing a search.
I can think of one really good reason for a no-knock warrant. I don't like getting my ass shot off because I have to announce to some previously violent slack jawed dick-head with a machine gun that I'm coming into his house to do a search. I don't like no-knocks, and never have even as a cop. If one was warranted to be used, I never wanted to be a part of the entry team. Federally, they are MFers to justify and if you could, it was better to just take the guy down somewhere else if all possible. With that said, I would never, ever say I can think of only one reason for this capability. That's just ignorant and short-sighted.
Afraid of having higher taxes because the city got sued? Cops lives are cheaper, the payoff is cheaper than possibly losing in court. What if the cop sued because he was placed in unnecessarily high levels of danger because a no-knock was disallowed? Not to mention the fact it indirectly states a cops life is worth less than possibly getting sued. Bad arguement.
Having been in a few entries, I have to admit, this cop was really fast on the trigger. As soon as you can visually comprehend what is happening in the video, he shoots. There are two people alive on this planet right now that can be very thankful I wasn't that fast on the bang lever. My personal opinion that the firing occurred way too fast based on the video. With that said, I have no background info on the entry or the players in this event other than narcotics as mentioned. I am highly suspect of the lack of any information concerning prior acts of violence and weapons concerning this no-knock. The media never omits info to the betterment of their articles, right?
How many successful no-knock warrants have you all read about in the papers, seen on youtube, or watch about on TV? When they do happen, the news simply states a search warrant was executed... No need to give info that isn't going to sell the TV time. You think you might only hear about "the gunman had a 30 round magazine" when it's printable? And yet "those bastards" always want to ban high cap mags when shit like this happens.
"Just one bad shoot in a no-knock is enough to stop all of them." Hey, this is big-boy really-real world shit being discussed here... Pick a scenario concering the following factors: society, drug. Someone is going to die. No matter what decision is made on the right way to handle it, someone is going to die as a direct result of that decision. Legalize all drugs, stop the war of drugs, fight the war on drugs... Some innocent person is gonna get smoked because of it. It's just the baggage that comes along with drugs.
Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to be.
Anyone that thinks war is good is ignorant. Anyone that thinks war isn't needed is stupid.
No, I'm not being overly sensitive. I do tire of the police bash mentality that is presented here most days. Our bigger bashers haven't really commented on the thread; they must be busy. Most don't pass the opportunity to take a swipe at the cops here.
"Grossly incompetent" are my words and weren't a phrase taken from you.
Officers could certainly be lied to. Happens every day, all day. People on this forum advocate the lying to cops in everyday contacts with them. The thing is, you can't go to a judge and say "Judge, I need a warrant to search 68Charger's home because Irving told me he might have some heroin." You have to do some legwork; you have show how the information is accurate, how the residence is involved, how the suspect is known, what actions prompted a reasonable person to believe the suspect is involved in the criminal activity, how accurate information provided to you in the past from this informant is, etc. Otherwise, any idiot with a vendetta could get the police to search or arrest people they don't like.
My kind of thinking is how law enforcement operates. You identify a suspect through the evidence and you present a case to the DA. Every case I present to the DA for prosecution, I KNOW the suspect is guilty of the crime(s). I not only meet my required threshold of 'probable cause', but I meet the DA's threshold of 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.
I'm trying to educate, not bash.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
We all know Irving is a poser-he never has the heroin he says he has or 68charger has
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to Fight, he'll just kill you.
fair enough, it's the internet- but not everyone presenting an opposing viewpoint is attacking you...
I understand, which is why I make the comment about incremental mistakes...multiple small mistakes could lead to a bad warrant execution... they may be uncommon, but watching the video is disturbing if you put yourself (but not as a criminal) in his shoes...
Between that, and some LEO's comments here that they feel it was a good shoot, and I want to beef up security- not because I have anything to hide, but because I'd rather make sure I KNOW it's the police, no-knock warrant or not. With all the chaos during such an event, and with the dogs that I have, chances are I'd be holding a weapon when the door broke down- not sure I could drop it quick enough to ID the invaders as police before they shoot me.
You're identifying your level of conviction/resolve at the time of prosecution- AFTER you've already executed the warrant, and acquired the evidence from the search... just sayin'...
I could play 'what if', but I think you'll get where I'm coming from...
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ, we are the III%, CIP2, and some other catchphrase meant to aggravate progreSSives who are hell bent on taking rights away...
Couple things here.
1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that no-knock raids can only be served during certain day light hours? Don't the police usually kick down doors at like 7:01am? If this is true, then there is a pretty clear cut answer to the question of "What do you do if someone kicks down your door at 2:00am. OneGuy can probably clarify this for us.
2) So it's okay for the trained officer to mistake a golf club for a sword and take a minor criminal's life, but it's not okay for the criminal to raise a golf club at a stranger/s breaking into his house unexpectedly? Let's try to keep things in perspective here. Mistakes were potentially made on both sides, but only the officer is excused? The other guy died and no big deal because he might have "made a bad decision?"
3) Oneguy: I'm sorry I can't find a better example, as I'm sure this is only a partial story, as was pointed out in the thread. However, I submit this link as an answer to the statement that you can't just tell a judge some made up BS and get a warrant. You weren't here the last time I posted it. I think the important stuff starts happening around page 5 or so. I don't post there any more. I'd at least like your opinion about it. I don't think he was ever charged with anything and don't really remember.
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/t...highlight=swat
Last edited by Irving; 01-25-2011 at 21:55.
"There are no finger prints under water."
First things first, Stu. Are you the 'Stu' on that forum with 26,000 posts? Holy cow! Between this forum and that forum, you are living on these forums!
Some states have limitations on the execution of warrants such as whether they can be executed at night or day. Colorado does not. When I was with the DEA task force, we would execute our warrants around 4 AM as the suspects tended to finally go to bed then. The decision of when to execute the warrant depends on a lot of factors such as crime involved, players involved, criminal histories, weapons, violent tendencies, etc. Nowadays, I don't do as much drug work, so the warrants I execute, I tend to do in the daytime and do it in a way that mimics the tv shows.
Pretty casual.
Not sure what you are trying to ask with the second question...
Now, about your friend Grey from the other forum. What he photographed is the warrant face sheet that needs to be left at the residence if a house is searched. That's the piece of paper which identifies what is being searched for, what is being searched and the reason for the search. There are 'four corners' to a search warrant. What is being searched for, what is being searched, why its being searched and the 'reasonable man' information for the authorizaton of the search. The additional documents of the search warrant is filed with the court as evidenced by the search warrant number of 09SW86, which means it was the 86th search warrant number issued in Douglas County as of that date, April 14, 2009. Unless sealed by order of the judge, the warrant is public record. You could go down and get a copy of it at the Douglas County court house. There should also be a 'return', which is a notice of what the search uncovered or what was seized that has to be filed with the clerk as well. Grey should have received an evidence form indicating what items were seized, if any.
Read the description of the house. Pretty detailed. Required to ensure the officer gets the right house. The search warrant was for cocaine and cocaine derivatives and marijuana and marijuana derivatives, evidence of drug dispensing paraphernalia, evidence of property ownership or control, evidence of storage facilities. Given his little Obama Cannabis avatar, wanna bet he sold some marijuana to someone?
Inside the Affidavit, you would find the information that led the judge to sign the warrant. They wouldn't be able to just take the word of an informant and go forth and get a warrant for marijuana, especially in that time and now, of all the marijuana law upheaval. The warrant needs to be reviewed by the D.A.'s office prior to approaching a judge and the D.A. wouldn't have signed off on a simple marijuana buy. Carol Chambers, the 18th Judicial D.A., requires her office review all search and arrest warrants prior to going to a judge for their review and signature, if applicable.
The officers wouldn't have taken the word of an informant that he bought dope there. There are steps taken to record the transaction and ensure the transaction is done according to court accepted police procedure. He may have sold some drugs to an informant at a different location (a meet) and the officers established he never went anywhere else but his residence before and after the sale, which would indicate he might be keeping his supply at the residence.
If officers went to Grey's work and arrested him, then he had a warrant for his arrest or they found evidence at his residence to arrest him for.
This is what I can say about this event. South Metro is a pretty upstanding cooperative organization that has officers from a number of different agencies like Arapahoe and Douglas Counties, Parker, Englewood, Greenwood Village, Littleton and Castle Rock PD's. If the Douglas SWAT team was involved in the execution of the warrant, then my brother was there as he is on that team. I may ask him about it.
Other than that, it would be pure speculization on my part without having the opportunity of reading the Affidavit and the Attachment "A" of the search warrant.
Hope that answers your questions, Stu. If not, PM me and we'll get together sometime and discuss it over an adult beverage.
“Every good citizen makes his country's honor his own, and cherishes it not only as precious but as sacred. He is willing to risk his life in its defense and is conscious that he gains protection while he gives it.” Andrew Jackson
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
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