Freedom called .........

[alxone]

Look, I get the basic thoughts behind all the cops on here defending the procedures used (ski masks, etc).

But you (you the cops,not "you" in particular) and your brothers in blue need to stop and think.

There are a lot more of us good guys than bad guys. You need us a lot more than we need you. You're losing us. I've never changed, the cops have. Respect is earned over a lifetime and all it takes is one act to blow it.

Every image that we see with $hit like this drives us further away. For some people one particular BS incident is that straw on the camel's back. You never know what that straw might be, but you need to stop putting them there and start taking them off.

You can't win over everybody and some people are just bad people. But the cops aren't even trying to win anyone. It's like they are trying to piss everyone off. You're succeeding in pissing us off, but that won't work in the long run.

And really, don't give us this BS about "rules and procedures". If it's wrong, and you know it's wrong, point it out AND STOP DOING IT. And if you 'lose your job", well too fucking bad, that's what being a free man is all about: having the opportunity to do the right thing.

Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences.

A+

I used to know the cops that walked the beat in my neighborhood , they were friendly and knew everyone and everyone knew them BY NAME. Now cops dont want to know the neighborhood or the residents , everybody is treated like a criminal . Have not seen a cop "walk the beat " in a long time and now who do you call ??? some random cop who knows nothing about the neighborhood or the people who live in it . I cant say what the problem is , not enough cops or bad management , but it would be nice to see a friendly face or two that i know and knows me and my neighbors by name.

[JohnTRourke]

It's obvious to me that I'm not going to change anyone's opinions here. That's fine, I'm not going to waste my time, energy, or brain to try to make you understand or think outside your small box or limited view of the world.

John states, " Your choice, guys in blue, but don't be surprised that the actions and choices you make have consequences." Yours too.

See
proves my point.

I'm the enemy just because I'm here working hard, paying taxes and getting along with my life. My choices are the same they have always been. Get along, pay taxes, go to work, etc. Never got a ticket I didn't deserve and only a couple of the cops were assholes. I don't drink, don't do drugs, not a felon, pass a background check and pay a shit ton of taxes and really almost never have any interaction with the police. And yet, my respect for the police is pretty much zero right now.

Yet I'm the enemy because of MY choices?

You might be a nice guy, but you're really missing the point. We don't hate you personally, we hate your organization and what it's become. but if you aren't willing to seperate yourself from that organization and realize that some (many) of these things that are happening are just simply wrong (perhaps even evil) then you are tarred with the same brush.

Your actions have consequences and just saying "it's my job" or "don't like the law change it" is crap, and deep down inside you know it. And yes, police have a privileged position in society and we do in fact hold them to a higher standard.

You (and clearly all the rest of the police) are not listening. Listen, don't just respond, listen to the comments here, not just from me, but from many. All gun owners (clean records), tax payers, the typical patriotic American as a whole and we're not happy with what the police now represent and in some cases (the other thread) simply don't trust the police at all.

You need us more than we need you. In fact, look at the other thread, where people say "don't ever invite the man into your life". Here's an honest upright citizen who basically is saying the police can only make your life worse, not better. That's what police now represent to what should be your biggest supporters . This is not a good thing and only the police can change it in a good way. The police only operate with the authority of the society, if you lose that social contract, then you have nothing.

BTW
Why don't cops have anything in common with "civilians", or friends with non-cops? Whose fault is that? Takes two people to be friends.

I didn't have this attitude 15 years ago, it's not me that changed. People who should be your biggest supporters are telling you something that you don't want to hear, but it doesn't make it not true.

Before you start typing, take a deep breath and go back thru this whole thread and really LISTEN to what people are saying. They are saying something that people are simply not going to present to cops because we're just "civilians" and we will be (and are) ignored. You have a real wealth of information here, real data (albeit anecdotal) that you and your "brothers in blue" really need to take consideration of. Maybe you'll decide it's all crap and the blue line is doing nothing wrong. That might even be true (although I doubt it), but perhaps you can take this information and improve both yourself personally and the police as whole. We're telling you the system is broken and it needs to be fixed, don't blame the messenger for that.

[Mtn.man]

Was me I'd take all this to my co workers and command and show them why people feel the way they do towards the officers.

[OneGuy67]

See
proves my point.

I'm the enemy just because I'm here working hard, paying taxes and getting along with my life. My choices are the same they have always been. Get along, pay taxes, go to work, etc. Never got a ticket I didn't deserve and only a couple of the cops were assholes. I don't drink, don't do drugs, not a felon, pass a background check and pay a shit ton of taxes and really almost never have any interaction with the police. And yet, my respect for the police is pretty much zero right now.

Yet I'm the enemy because of MY choices?

You might be a nice guy, but you're really missing the point. We don't hate you personally, we hate your organization and what it's become. but if you aren't willing to seperate yourself from that organization and realize that some (many) of these things that are happening are just simply wrong (perhaps even evil) then you are tarred with the same brush.

Your actions have consequences and just saying "it's my job" or "don't like the law change it" is crap, and deep down inside you know it. And yes, police have a privileged position in society and we do in fact hold them to a higher standard.

You (and clearly all the rest of the police) are not listening. Listen, don't just respond, listen to the comments here, not just from me, but from many. All gun owners (clean records), tax payers, the typical patriotic American as a whole and we're not happy with what the police now represent and in some cases (the other thread) simply don't trust the police at all.

You need us more than we need you. In fact, look at the other thread, where people say "don't ever invite the man into your life". Here's an honest upright citizen who basically is saying the police can only make your life worse, not better. That's what police now represent to what should be your biggest supporters . This is not a good thing and only the police can change it in a good way. The police only operate with the authority of the society, if you lose that social contract, then you have nothing.

BTW
Why don't cops have anything in common with "civilians", or friends with non-cops? Whose fault is that? Takes two people to be friends.

I didn't have this attitude 15 years ago, it's not me that changed. People who should be your biggest supporters are telling you something that you don't want to hear, but it doesn't make it not true.

Before you start typing, take a deep breath and go back thru this whole thread and really LISTEN to what people are saying. They are saying something that people are simply not going to present to cops because we're just "civilians" and we will be (and are) ignored. You have a real wealth of information here, real data (albeit anecdotal) that you and your "brothers in blue" really need to take consideration of. Maybe you'll decide it's all crap and the blue line is doing nothing wrong. That might even be true (although I doubt it), but perhaps you can take this information and improve both yourself personally and the police as whole. We're telling you the system is broken and it needs to be fixed, don't blame the messenger for that.

I'm not sure what point of yours I've proven, other than to accept the fact that your position has consequences. I don't and won't try to change it.

No one but yourself as accused you of being the enemy. You put that label onto yourself, not me. You want a rational conversation? We can have one. However, you are going to have to realize your position may be what goes for the norm here on this forum, it isn't the norm for most of society.

I can't change your decision to like cops or not. Frankly, I don't care. You have your opinions and I have mine. The middle, apparently, they shall not meet.

Frankly, I'm not missing the point you are trying to make. You want to hate something, to put the onus on something and to blame something. You want to blame "the establishment". The cops are the face of establishment. You want to point fingers and say they are storm troopers, they remind you of Nazi Germany, and remember fondly the days of old, when there was cop walking a beat in downtown Longmont who knew everyone's name and took them home to their parents when they misbehaved. How dare those cops execute a search warrant at that marijuana shop? That poor owner is just trying to make a living. How dare there be more than one cop there? How dare they wear a protective vest to a place where there may be firearms and people who will not be happy to see them?

You want to tar me with the same brush, then go ahead. Your opinion of something being wrong doesn't make it wrong. You don't like the way "the government" runs. I get that. Because in your opinion, something is terribly wrong, but it doesn't make it terribly wrong. It could be just that it isn't the way you want it to be. I don't like a lot of what the federal government is doing and I'm not too fond of the current state government makeup. Doesn't change what I do on a daily basis. I still go out and put in my time doing my job and I do it knowing there are people like you out there who don't respect the job I do and dislike me for doing it.

My actions do have consequences; far more than yours. I can be sued for a variety of different things, from failure to train, failure to supervise, failure to act, failure in execution. I am scrutinized and frankly, should be, by the people I work for, which happen to be the people you elected in our representative republic and ultimately, the citizenry. I am held to a higher standard and all who have a badge should be. That badge should be taken away when they violate the trust and responsibility that comes with it. However, it isn't up to you to say when that occurs. Too many here have had their own dealings with the police and they feel they were not treated correctly, the case not handled like they wanted or the outcome not what they wanted. "The police were rude while I was a perfect angel" isn't going to fly. Their case, their investigation may not have passed the sniff test with their local district or city attorney, who ultimately has to prosecute the case.

I don't say "It's my job" or "don't like the law, change it", although they are truisms. I don't make the laws, I enforce them. THAT IS MY JOB (There, I said it). Some laws I don't agree with; doesn't change my job.

Who exactly are the police supposed to be listening to? Your simplistic answer is: the public. It isn't that simplistic. Wish it were. Life isn't simplistic anymore. Is the public represented in the occasional person who calls and complains that law enforcement isn't doing what that person thinks they should? Should law enforcement be listening to the people who employ them, the city counsels, the county commissioners, the mayors, city and county managers, the state representatives and other elected officials? Simplistic answer is yes. Ours is a representative republic; you elect people to represent you and to run things, to hire law enforcement. In that, you have a voice to raise. You can petition your peeps, or complain directly. You can assemble and petition your government for redress. You can complain to the officer's supervisor and work your way on up the chain. Whether they take you seriously, depends on you.

You want me to listen to the comments posted here. I do. There are many like yourself that don't really seem to truly comprehend this isn't the 60's anymore. You lament about the loss of the neighborhood cop walking a beat who knew your name. That went away when cops got vehicles and radios, in about the 60's. It is sad, I agree, but that is reality. Times have changed. There are more people, more crime, less cops.

You want me to believe that all gun owners have clean records. Can't do that. Too many I run into do not. Too many I deal with believe that a gun equals power equals respect. Not unlike some here? You want me to believe that all gun owners are tax payers, are typical patriotic Americans. What is that exactly? Your idea of that may not be what my idea of that is. My idea of a patriot is someone who puts their ass where their mouth is and signs on the dotted line and serves their country and their fellow man, goes where their country tells them to and physically represents their country's foreign policy. Yours apparently are all unhappy with what the police represent and don't trust the police. I have nothing to say at that. What can I say? Your idea of what America looks like apparently is different than my own.

"Don't ever invite the man into your life" as quoted from a different thread. Yep. That is the general thought here on this forum. Pretty sad, too. There is nothing I can say that will change anyone's opinion here on that. I just hope that those who say it here on an anonymous internet forum will say it in real life when or if, that time comes when you need some assistance. I will applaud your intestinal fortitude and your resolve to stand by your beliefs if you do.

Here's the rub. I've said it earlier and I'll say it again. Who changed? Did society as a whole change, or parts of society who make up a louder and more noisy section of it change, or the police change? We'll be on two different sides of that belief and argument.

Why do I need you more than you need us? 'You' as you have stated is the general public and not you (you), although I don't want to put words in your mouth. Frankly, 'you' are my workload and without you, I wouldn't have to put in 60-80 hours a week, dealing with 'you'. So, if 'you' would stop being deviant, then 'I' wouldn't have to continually deal with 'you'. You understand?

I related my experiences previously of losing my non-cop friends over the years. You want to find fault with it? Fine. I guess I'm at fault. I've explained previously my experiences and here you are, acting like that guy at the party who has a bellyfull of liquid courage and asks the stupid questions. You ever in the military? If so, in combat? Can you explain combat to someone who has never been there or ever hope to understand it? Same with law enforcement (please don't accuse me of correlating the two. I've seen and done both). I can't explain to you the latest homicide I'm working or try to get you to understand the motivation behind the killing, what the crime scene looked like, how it smelled, the shattered remains of the families involved, their desperate desire to understand the reasons why. As an insurance salesman, you have no idea as that is out of your realm of experiences and frankly, for some, they don't want to know or hear about those things. So how do you relate? Common interests? You can only talk about fishing for so long. That is why we do tend to gravitate to others who understand, who have seen similar things and we can talk about them without sounding like we are giving a lecture at the local college on crime scenes. Very similar to combat troops in that regard. I was 11B, by the way...

You told me to take a deep breath before writing this and believe me, I didn't write this out of anger. I am up for respectful conversation and dialgoue, but it has to be respectful. Not because I'm a cop, because I'm a human being, who is putting a lot out there for not only you to read and maybe understand, but for a whole bunch of others to read as well.

The "wealth of information" you allege to, is again, your opinion of things. Why should I listen to your opinion any more than anyone else's? Because you feel some comradre with some of the people here doesn't make the combined opinions a social norm or the opinion of the majority of people. There are people on this forum whose opinions I do respect, even if they clash with my own. We can agree to be civil with each other, express our points and agree that there is some merit to their argument. I'm not sure you fit into that catagory, especially when you tell me to "take this information (opinion) and improve both yourself personally and the police as a whole". Sorry, Brian. I have to know you and respect you before I will take anything you have to say and "improve" myself with it.

[alxone]

Who exactly are the police supposed to be listening to? Your simplistic answer is: the public. It isn't that simplistic. Wish it were. Life isn't simplistic anymore. Is the public represented in the occasional person who calls and complains that law enforcement isn't doing what that person thinks they should? Should law enforcement be listening to the people who employ them, the city counsels, the county commissioners, the mayors, city and county managers, the state representatives and other elected officials? Simplistic answer is yes. Ours is a representative republic; you elect people to represent you and to run things, to hire law enforcement. In that, you have a voice to raise. You can petition your peeps, or complain directly. You can assemble and petition your government for redress. You can complain to the officer's supervisor and work your way on up the chain. Whether they take you seriously, depends on you.

You want me to listen to the comments posted here. I do. There are many like yourself that don't really seem to truly comprehend this isn't the 60's anymore. You lament about the loss of the neighborhood cop walking a beat who knew your name. That went away when cops got vehicles and radios, in about the 60's. It is sad, I agree, but that is reality. Times have changed. There are more people, more crime, less cops.

yes your right its not as simplistic as anyone would like to think and your also right its not the 60's but you are wrong in some citys they still walk a beat , baltimore being one of them , no not all the neborhoods but you do still see cops on foot , also new york city . Sure denver is different but i do remember when i lived here as a kid , i knew the cops and they knew me , granted its been a while since i was a kid . but the point im trying to make is . when ever a cop stops in the neighborhood it seems to be just for crime . Maybe what im asking for is the police as a whole make an effort to get out of the car and just say hello "im officer blank and i drive around your neighborhood , maybe if you tried that with any old person you would find that your respect level would go up and in turn your job would be easier. Nobody is asking you to go door to door and shake hands , just pick a block or two a day , and hang out , read the paper wait for a call , if you see an old lady , help her with her things . No one is even asking you stop doing your job and dont pretend like you cant spare a few minutes of time for a grandma . I know if a cop help out my mother or grandmother with anything for no reason , hell even if i heard that it happened in that past 20 years to anyone's grandma or mother , my respect level would go up .
I honestly dont care if you think my view is simplistic but all the older folks i know are scared to call the police , aren't these and children the people who need cops the most ???

[OneGuy67]

yes your right its not as simplistic as anyone would like to think and your also right its not the 60's but you are wrong in some citys they still walk a beat , baltimore being one of them , no not all the neborhoods but you do still see cops on foot , also new york city . Sure denver is different but i do remember when i lived here as a kid , i knew the cops and they knew me , granted its been a while since i was a kid . but the point im trying to make is . when ever a cop stops in the neighborhood it seems to be just for crime . Maybe what im asking for is the police as a whole make an effort to get out of the car and just say hello "im officer blank and i drive around your neighborhood , maybe if you tried that with any old person you would find that your respect level would go up and in turn your job would be easier. Nobody is asking you to go door to door and shake hands , just pick a block or two a day , and hang out , read the paper wait for a call , if you see an old lady , help her with her things . No one is even asking you stop doing your job and dont pretend like you cant spare a few minutes of time for a grandma . I know if a cop help out my mother or grandmother with anything for no reason , hell even if i heard that it happened in that past 20 years to anyone's grandma or mother , my respect level would go up .
I honestly dont care if you think my view is simplistic but all the older folks i know are scared to call the police , aren't these and children the people who need cops the most ???

I don't disagree with any of your points. You make some great points! In fact, at the last agency I worked at, it was a requirement to do many of the things you recommend and the police approval rate was 95% in every survey conducted during the 10 years I was there.

That city had a lower rate of crime, which allowed the officers to do what you recommend. We had officers who routinely visited elderly citizens that lived alone in the city.

Yes, New York City does have cops walking a beat. They had a couple on each block, which was the answer Mayor Rudy G. had to try to fix their crime problem. It was successful...and expensive. I was there in NYC in 2008 and that was no longer the norm. I saw a few cops here and there, but not like it was when I visited during the height of Rudy's "solution".

Unfortunately, there is too many calls for service and not enough cops in a lot of cities. My last agency, the city population was over 100,000 during the day and we had 6 cops and a supervisor on. On good days, we had a traffic officer or two. That is the norm for most agencies that size. Some less. I'm not looking for pity for cops, I'm trying to get people to understand. I understand that for some towns and counties, this isn't the norm and they have the time to be more proactive, more social.

Also, I've acknowledged in an earlier post that there is a movement with younger officers to be more "tactical" or "tacticool" and I wonder the need for all the toys and things they feel they need. All the companies that cater to the military and to law enforcement are pushing the same toys and topics to both, and the civilian market is buying them up as well because they are "military". Does the officer in La Salle, Evans, La Junta, Salida, or other small town in Colorado really feel the need for the toys for their safety? Are their towns that dangerous? This is something that I observed in my 20 years in law enforcement.

[alxone]

Also, I've acknowledged in an earlier post that there is a movement with younger officers to be more "tactical" or "tacticool" and I wonder the need for all the toys and things they feel they need. All the companies that cater to the military and to law enforcement are pushing the same toys and topics to both, and the civilian market is buying them up as well because they are "military". Does the officer in La Salle, Evans, La Junta, Salida, or other small town in Colorado really feel the need for the toys for their safety? Are their towns that dangerous? This is something that I observed in my 20 years in law enforcement.

i feel that all the tactical toys are tools of a trade involving safety , but in a town of that size they are the tools of a bully .At the same time i think that it is a right to carry a gun ,but no one should feel the need to . So yes i realize just cause i think it , that dose not make it so . But still ar's and ski masks for a legal store front ( not that i agree with pot shops) ,but come on would they have gone through the same tactical nonsense if it had been a hobby store or a regular pharmacy ? I think not ,its all a show to distract us of other things , what i dont know but im sure its happening . Maybe they will pass some law that links all small business together then they shut down pot shops and by doing that they are able to push out other small unrelated shops , just because they are independent . but now im off topic and some would say off my rocker . so ill just put on my tinfoil hat and be quite for a while

[OneGuy67]

i feel that all the tactical toys are tools of a trade involving safety , but in a town of that size they are the tools of a bully .At the same time i think that it is a right to carry a gun ,but no one should feel the need to . So yes i realize just cause i think it , that dose not make it so . But still ar's and ski masks for a legal store front ( not that i agree with pot shops) ,but come on would they have gone through the same tactical nonsense if it had been a hobby store or a regular pharmacy ? I think not ,its all a show to distract us of other things , what i dont know but im sure its happening . Maybe they will pass some law that links all small business together then they shut down pot shops and by doing that they are able to push out other small unrelated shops , just because they are independent . but now im off topic and some would say off my rocker . so ill just put on my tinfoil hat and be quite for a while

Nah, Alxone! I like having that rational discussion with you. I don't disagree that their officer presence might have been different if the store was a hobby shop or a regular pharmacy and that it might have had something to do with the nature of the business. I don't know. I can speculate though!

Take care. See you at the next topic!

[Byte Stryke]

"Don't ever invite the man into your life" as quoted from a different thread. Yep. That is the general thought here on this forum. Pretty sad, too. There is nothing I can say that will change anyone's opinion here on that. I just hope that those who say it here on an anonymous internet forum will say it in real life when or if, that time comes when you need some assistance. I will applaud your intestinal fortitude and your resolve to stand by your beliefs if you do.

Here's the rub. I've said it earlier and I'll say it again. Who changed? Did society as a whole change, or parts of society who make up a louder and more noisy section of it change, or the police change? We'll be on two different sides of that belief and argument.

The quote you listed. it isn't so much a slight on Law enforcement as much as it is sound advice.
"Do NOT Talk to police."
"Do not Answer any questions."
It is more a doctrine of self-preservation.

I Call the police for accidents and other absolutely necessary calls. Other than that if there is a cop around, I'm Keeping distance and mouth shut.
ANY interaction imight get me "run to county" at a Minimum for a "Check" because he doesn't like how I look or "has a hunch". (and yes I know this happens)


Who Changed?
Does it matter? you as a police officer can make a difference everyday in your interactions with the public.
You as a ranking officer in your department can influence those in your ranks to do the same.

While we might not see it personally, the public will.
The longest journey begins with a single step.

[Elhuero]

I'm sorry, I've been slacking.

See, usually when I post things that can be considered anti cop I add the "I hope all good cops are safe and protected by the almighty" disclaimer.

however recently I haven't been doing that. I'll usually post the "insert anti cop comment here" disclaimer. or just make a small, non rant anti cop post like "police acting stupid, go figure" or "officer safety>your rights"

so in the future I will try to include my disclaimer more often.

that people can realize that I am a being of duality.

not only do I hope all the good, honest, brave, hard working officers make it home safe every shift.

I also hope all the king shit, rule breaking, gun taking, ignorant of the law officers get pricked by a needle, catch aids, get shot by a crackhead and die in a fire.

I hope both of these things simultaneously.

it's all bout duality.

so that when we're talking about a cop that shoots a family dog at a traffic stop, or a cop that disarms and detains a citizen lawfully open carrying then tries to arrest him because he has a concealed carry permit (and because you have the permit you HAVE to carry concealed, open carry becomes illegal), or a cop that claims a suspect tried to run him over when later a convenience store camera shows the officer lied, or a cop that makes a hand gesture to his partner to indicate he should plant drugs on a suspect, and I say "stupid idiot cops"

just remember I'm talking about them and not you

have a nice day