Freedom called .........

[JohnTRourke]

So, I thought further on this last night (during that stupid wind that never ends, can I call 911 for that? )

Why do normal everyday people not trust or like the police anymore? (I get why scumbags don't like the police, I think that's obvious and has never changed)

I have some thoughts on that.

1. Certainly the issue of the SWAT/tacticool/black storm trooper tactics are big on this. Esp in the gun owner community. Are there occasions where these tactics are needed? Absolutely, but they are probably about 5% of all the times they are used. Come busting into my house/store/other all dressed up in black screaming yelling and waving guns around and if I survive, I'm not going to be happy and my respect goes way down.

1a. war on drugs. it ain't working, wake up.

2. TSA: joke. total joke. I realize they aren't really police, but they are officers of the government and they are killing everyday police feelings for nothing the everyday police did.

3. Border Patrol/INS: joke. I mean, for fucks sake, look around.

4. The whole illegal situation. (in addition to #3). Illegals get away with most everything that the regular guy doesn't. go to court for a traffic offense and you get hammered for some huge fine (because you can pay) while illegal after illegal walks with minimal crap for much bigger things. (been true for 20+ years, you can't tell me that any cop respects this. but when it's not applied to all, it fails to apply to any)

5. 55mph/speeding/red light-speeding cameras. Yes, speeding could be bad, might even contribute, But the cop sitting on the side of the road running radar on a dead straight section of wide open freeway purely to raise money blows all respect for everyone in blue. I think you can certainly trace back a lot of resentment to this whole tactic which only started with the 55mph speed limit thing in the mid 1970's. If you're driving like an asshole, off you go, nobody has a problem with that. But driving 5mph over on a empty road getting a ticket is just wrong and people resent it. esp when everyday I watch way more stupid shit go on (and total junk POS cars on the road with no working brake lights) so they can write a speeding ticket. And then the hypocrisy when they say "oh it's all about safety". that's the final touch that just loses any respect.

6. Laws that only apply to people who have something to lose. gun laws, code enforcement. (get tickets left and right for code violations, watch the 6 illegal families living together with chickens/pigs/etc with cars on blocks go on right down the street. VDH talks a lot about this, esp true in CA). traffic tickets.

6a. Selectively applied laws. Part of code, traffic, drugs, etc. Either it's against the law or it isn't. but just because some people are special pretty much makes the everyone else resent it.

7. DOT cops. Ok, I get they have a tough job and honestly most of them are pretty decent people trying to get the junk off the road. But if you have a question, and you ask the same question to 3 different DOT guys you'll get 3 different answers. How is that useful? how can I plan for that? And yet again, it still comes down to both the illegal situation and the selectively applied laws.

8. thin blue line. yeah, society wants to hold cops to a higher standard. But when nothing happens (investigated by their own) and it's on video or just plain wrong, that's it, you lose thousands of everyday people. I don't know why this happens. Corruption falls under this too.

9. PC/gender standards/incompetence. All the BS (that I'm sure is not coming from cops themselves, but the .gov somewhere) that just kills respect for the cops. Every single woman cop I've met either has a HUGE attitude (while being about 5'2", 110lbs soaking wet), completely incompetent (stuck at a desk) or both. Sorry, when they lowered the standards to "take everyone" it blows it (probably has something to do with #8 above too). I think it becomes a lot of incompetence too. Too busy filling out forms instead of doing work. Don't know/don't care who's fault it is, but zero respect here. And you can't tell me that 90% of the women cops aren't just numbers and have any respect on the force. Maybe (thinking out loud here) this goes back to the whole tacticool thing. Because a 5'2" 110lb woman dealing with a 6'2" 250lb drunk man is going to go right to force where another guy (even a smaller guy) can usually reason with them. (and if not, handle the situation)

10. When things get really bad, cops are generally nowhere to be found. Reginald Denny, LA Riots, Columbine, Katrina. Maybe these are aberrations, but there are a lot of them, those are only the ones that come to mind right now. Police can't claim they have a dangerous job (yeah, like #25 on the list) and then when things get dangerous it's all about officer safety.

Just thoughts, don't know if any are true or not, but it certainly seems like, hope it leads to more discussion. (hope it leads to changes honestly, but I'll start small)

[Mtn.man]

#11. Cops LIE, and LIE and LIE...
They don't know the law but they will tell you a LIE to geet you to fuck up..
They are trained to lie, but want you to tell the truth, Bullshit double standard again.

You lie in any other type of work your ass is fired.

[OneGuy67]

So, I thought further on this last night (during that stupid wind that never ends, can I call 911 for that? )

Why do normal everyday people not trust or like the police anymore? (I get why scumbags don't like the police, I think that's obvious and has never changed)

I have some thoughts on that.

1. Certainly the issue of the SWAT/tacticool/black storm trooper tactics are big on this. Esp in the gun owner community. Are there occasions where these tactics are needed? Absolutely, but they are probably about 5% of all the times they are used. Come busting into my house/store/other all dressed up in black screaming yelling and waving guns around and if I survive, I'm not going to be happy and my respect goes way down.

1a. war on drugs. it ain't working, wake up.

2. TSA: joke. total joke. I realize they aren't really police, but they are officers of the government and they are killing everyday police feelings for nothing the everyday police did.

3. Border Patrol/INS: joke. I mean, for fucks sake, look around.

4. The whole illegal situation. (in addition to #3). Illegals get away with most everything that the regular guy doesn't. go to court for a traffic offense and you get hammered for some huge fine (because you can pay) while illegal after illegal walks with minimal crap for much bigger things. (been true for 20+ years, you can't tell me that any cop respects this. but when it's not applied to all, it fails to apply to any)

5. 55mph/speeding/red light-speeding cameras. Yes, speeding could be bad, might even contribute, But the cop sitting on the side of the road running radar on a dead straight section of wide open freeway purely to raise money blows all respect for everyone in blue. I think you can certainly trace back a lot of resentment to this whole tactic which only started with the 55mph speed limit thing in the mid 1970's. If you're driving like an asshole, off you go, nobody has a problem with that. But driving 5mph over on a empty road getting a ticket is just wrong and people resent it. esp when everyday I watch way more stupid shit go on (and total junk POS cars on the road with no working brake lights) so they can write a speeding ticket. And then the hypocrisy when they say "oh it's all about safety". that's the final touch that just loses any respect.

6. Laws that only apply to people who have something to lose. gun laws, code enforcement. (get tickets left and right for code violations, watch the 6 illegal families living together with chickens/pigs/etc with cars on blocks go on right down the street. VDH talks a lot about this, esp true in CA). traffic tickets.

6a. Selectively applied laws. Part of code, traffic, drugs, etc. Either it's against the law or it isn't. but just because some people are special pretty much makes the everyone else resent it.

7. DOT cops. Ok, I get they have a tough job and honestly most of them are pretty decent people trying to get the junk off the road. But if you have a question, and you ask the same question to 3 different DOT guys you'll get 3 different answers. How is that useful? how can I plan for that? And yet again, it still comes down to both the illegal situation and the selectively applied laws.

8. thin blue line. yeah, society wants to hold cops to a higher standard. But when nothing happens (investigated by their own) and it's on video or just plain wrong, that's it, you lose thousands of everyday people. I don't know why this happens. Corruption falls under this too.

9. PC/gender standards/incompetence. All the BS (that I'm sure is not coming from cops themselves, but the .gov somewhere) that just kills respect for the cops. Every single woman cop I've met either has a HUGE attitude (while being about 5'2", 110lbs soaking wet), completely incompetent (stuck at a desk) or both. Sorry, when they lowered the standards to "take everyone" it blows it (probably has something to do with #8 above too). I think it becomes a lot of incompetence too. Too busy filling out forms instead of doing work. Don't know/don't care who's fault it is, but zero respect here. And you can't tell me that 90% of the women cops aren't just numbers and have any respect on the force. Maybe (thinking out loud here) this goes back to the whole tacticool thing. Because a 5'2" 110lb woman dealing with a 6'2" 250lb drunk man is going to go right to force where another guy (even a smaller guy) can usually reason with them. (and if not, handle the situation)

10. When things get really bad, cops are generally nowhere to be found. Reginald Denny, LA Riots, Columbine, Katrina. Maybe these are aberrations, but there are a lot of them, those are only the ones that come to mind right now. Police can't claim they have a dangerous job (yeah, like #25 on the list) and then when things get dangerous it's all about officer safety.

Just thoughts, don't know if any are true or not, but it certainly seems like, hope it leads to more discussion. (hope it leads to changes honestly, but I'll start small)

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this conversation. I had work to do on behalf of the citizens of Colorado. I want to make sure you all get your every penny's worth.

To answer your questions, I'll use your numbering system. I'm not smart enough to block them out and answer them like others can.

1. You speak on the use of tactical teams and the results if they were to bust in your door all dressed in black, yelling and waving guns. You do realize that the chances of that happening are nearly zero (I'm guessing 99.99999999999% not gonna happen, but you never want to say never). If you don't do anything in your life that would necessitate the need for that, you will never receive a visit like that, so why be so fearful of it? That's like me worrying someone's gonna drive through the front of my house. Chances are really good it's never gonna happen, so why worry about it?

1a. Yep. Fighting a losing battle on this due to the demand for the drugs. However, we shouldn't throw in the towell because people won't stop using. We shouldn't allow the fear of being caught and punishment to go away and allow even more to use, abuse, steal or commit fraud and forgery for drug money without impunity.

2. TSA is a joke. They aren't law enforcement and shouldn't be considered law enforcement. They are security guards that work for the FEDERAL governmnent. The average person should not equate them with their local municipal, county or state law enforcement officer. Doing so, really makes you ignorant of the differences in government. Need to take a civics class.

3. Border Patrol/INS (ICE). Perfect example of an agency who is underfunded, undermanned and doesn't have clear marching orders from their superiors. Also, they work for the FEDERAL government. See civics class mention above.

4. The whole illegal situation. How is that the fault of the local cops? The illegals are violating FEDERAL law by being here, not state law. The local cops can only issue tickets for driving without a license, having no insurance and all the other traffic related citations you would get. They can't make ICE do anything. The lowly cops cannot make the court system work better, make the fines stiffer or any other complaint. All they can do is, keep writing the citations that eventually will cause the state to deem that person to be a Habitual Traffic Offender, or suspend or revoke a driving privilege they don't currently have anyway, which then give the cop the power to make an arrest and book the person in jail. They then may have their prints uploaded through Secure Communities and maybe, maybe, ICE will deport. It isn't the fault of the cops.

5. You don't like the cop sitting on the roadway writing speeding tickets. In the various postings of yours, you've mentioned this a few times. Gonna guess you've gotten a few speeding tickets. You may lose respect for the cops for them doing that, but what does it do? It slows traffic down, which may be your issue. People see the patrol vehicle and they do pay attention to their driving, if for only a few minutes. We again, don't make the speed limit decisions. I personally have what you allege is terrible and bad. HOWEVER, I did it in the evening and didn't look at anyone under 20 miles over the limit and then I was fishing for drunk drivers. Found quite a few. Surprise, surprise. If you got a ticket for 5 MPH over the limit, then that officer truly had nothing to do, especially given it is hard to fight that in court when the calibration allows for a few MPH to be off.

6. Laws only apply to someone who has something to lose. That is true, I guess, given we all have our freedom of movement to lose (jail). We also have our employment, our vehicles, our license, our money, our family, our pride, our standing in the community, our reputation, etc., etc., etc. So, I'm not sure where you were going with this point.

6a. Selectively applied laws. All are required to adhere to them. I'm thinking that you mean the discretion that law enforcement has to give none, one or all tickets or enforce the speed zone uniformly or zoning uniformly. Some would argue they like this particular issue, as they've received a verbal warning on a ticket, gotten a pass on a DUI, wasn't arrested for underage drinking and turned over to their parents, etc. I guess we could write and arrest everyone uniformly.

7. DOT cops. What are DOT cops? I'll make the assumption you mean the Colorado State Patrol as being the Department of Transportation cops. Let me know if I am wrong. CSP's mission is traffic enforcement and safety on the highways. For the most part, that is it. They also handle the traffic accidents in unincorporated areas of the state. I'm not sure what question you asked of the 3 "DOT cops" that you got three different answers to, but the Colorado Revised Statutes are online and printed, and they are the laws, in black and white. Not much in the way of interpretation with them.

8. Thin blue line. I guess you are referring to Denver PD and the latest video's of their officers doing dumb things and their Police Protective Association (PPA) defending them. Can't argue that one. Personally, Denver PD needs to be brought into the 2010's with their policing, but until they get out of their court mandated hiring practices, require a stricter hiring standard, loose their institutional practices of not allowing the chief or higher leadership to fire someone, then Denver will always be "out there", and not the norm of law enforcement. When I was a patrol officer, I would give a pass on a speeding ticket to an officer, but I would also do so for the general citizen as well. DUI? Nope. I arrested them. I've arrested cops all my career and I'm not going to stop, if they do something stupid.

9. Women cops. You obviously have an issue with them. I've worked with a number of females over the years and they are just like their male counterparts; some are good and some are bad and should find another line of work. I won't deny that a good majority of female officers I've met in my career have some issue that drove them to law enforcement; daddy issues, power issues, control issues, etc. Some, however, didn't have these things and were similar to their male counterparts in their desire to serve their fellow citizens. Although, I'm not sure if everyone agrees with your assessment that they kill the respect of the cops. It does sound like it may be your personal issue. I would say that the ones I've respected over the years were able to handle most situations themselves without assistance and excelled in some situations were a calming voice is needed instead of testosterone. Also, children tend to want to talk to a female officer over a male officer and female rape victims tend to want to as well. It isn't 'tacticool'; its common sense. The size difference you mention doesn solely pertain to female officers; I used to work with a male officer who was 5'6" and 125 lbs. He used his Taser at least 4-5 times a year in confrontations with much larger males while I, at 6'0" and 205 lbs, use my size and officer presence in confrontations. It sits well with the courts for him to show the size difference and the need to utilize a tool to obtain compliance; I, on the other hand, would have a lawsuit on my hands as the court would ask why the need for the tool, given my size to the offenders's size. That's life.

10. Cops are wherever there is an issue. We just happen to be a minority. You talk about the L.A. riots. How many people live in L.A.; how many in the area affected? There are only 10,000 cops to the population of 3.8 million. Much less cops here. You mention Columbine. There was a School Resource Officer who traded shots with one of the assailants before he ran into the school. At the time, the standard doctrine was to surround (contain) and call in SWAT. Since Columbine, the doctrine had changed and now first responding officers are trained to go in after the suspect. Events cause change. All events are reactive; laws, doctrine changes, military, foreign policy, etc. You want to challenge the job of a cop being dangerous. I've personally haven't thought of it being overly dangerous, but it is one of the only jobs where someone intending to do harm has the upper hand. I make a traffic stop in a patrol vehicle in full uniform, people know what I am. I have no clue as to the person in the other vehicle, what they might have just done, what their state of mind is, what fears they have. I am at a disadvantage. Dangerous? Maybe some days.

And for Mountain Man:

11. In my nearly 20 years of being a cop, I have never been to a class or a school that taught me how to lie. That being said, I'm allowed to lie to suspects and there is a number of case law appeals that allow me that. I do lie to suspect's in interviews and while I'm working undercover drug cases. However, I never lie on the stand, in my reports, to a judge or to my supervisors. See today's Denver Post about the Aurora Dective who lied to the judge and what happened to him. You lie in any of these situations and it is no different than any other type of work, you get fired. The cardinal rule I always taught my trainee's when I trained officers was, to never lie. You wreck a car, tell the truth. You'll get a couple of days off, but you won't be fired. You hit a suspect, tell the truth. Same thing. You'll be disciplined, but probably not fired. You lie, you always get fired.

Hope these answer some of your thoughts and questions. Always willing to further the conversation.