your thoughts

[Elhuero]

So this is apropos to this thread:

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/534336/more_damaging_than_abu_ghraib_repugnant_army_%27ki ll_team%27_took_photos,_trophies_from_murdered_afg han_civilians/

This goes way beyond taunting kids with water or throwing a puppy. This is the kind of shit that seriously damages the "hearts and minds" concept of fighting an insurgency. I would be reticent to suggest looking at the actual images.

H.

LOL whenever we start talking about "war crimes" liberals start screaming ABU GARIB!!!

and whenever the talk is about presidential corruption they scream RICHARD NIXON!!!

just like their new cry for gun control, GABRIELLE GIFFORDS!!!!!


it's just meaningless, politically driven bullshit.

if you believe for a minute that any liberal in this country gives a shit about anyone involved in abu garib, for any reason other than political dirt, you are a fool.

oh and, I've watched the videos and seen the photos... and I'm ok with it.

why? well, I never saw a video of marines, army or contractors sawing the heads off of iraqi civilians with butcher knives.

Furthermore, I dare say it would help our cause and hurt our enemies if we gave them more doses of harsh treatment.

[staitolog]

Back to Russia, with love.

[theGinsue]

In my best Yakov Smirnoff impression:

In Russia we don't do Spam. No one can afford it.

[Hoosier]

oh and, I've watched the videos and seen the photos... and I'm ok with it.

why? well, I never saw a video of marines, army or contractors sawing the heads off of iraqi civilians with butcher knives.

Furthermore, I dare say it would help our cause and hurt our enemies if we gave them more doses of harsh treatment.

You saw the images at Der Spiegel that were linked from that alternet URL I posted? This is not the same as the kids and teaching them to say I love pork, this is another (new) issue. Where they (reportedly) killed unarmed people and took war trophies of human flesh.

I just want to make sure you're aware that this isn't the same thing as the first video. I wouldn't want you to be misconstrued as saying you endorse that type of activity.

H.

[tmckay2]

jeezus people. can we be rational here? do you think you can take 100,000 people of any professional, creed, race, ethnicity or nationality and not have some be complete dicks or idiots? then take those people, put them in a hostile environment where their lives are threatened every day, give them weapons, take them thousands of miles from home for months and years on end, and then see what happens. people who do this stuff should be punished severely, absolutely, but to think it isn't bound to happen and is unique to americans is just plain stupid. american soldiers AS A WHOLE have always been known to be the most caring and passionate, but there are always bad seeds. vietnam was the same way. as was ww2. when we start stabbing pregnant women with bayonets (russians in afghanistan), locking people up in camps and refusing the feed them or gasing them in mass numbers (germans in ww2), or force them to march insane distances with nothing to eat or drink (japanese in ww2) then we can start talking. until then, its simply the ugliness of war. find the people, dishonorably discharge them and charge them criminally if warranted, and move on.

if you don't think there is an agenda in compiling and showing these videos, then you are wrong. the world outside looks at us as terrible, imperialistic, and selfish because the media portrays only the bad of what goes on over there. if you have been there or have friends/relatives there, you know that is far from the norm and that good deeds happen on a daily basis. its exactly like vietnam. sure, its bad, but its made to look worse by people who have agendas.

[Elhuero]

You saw the images at Der Spiegel that were linked from that alternet URL I posted? This is not the same as the kids and teaching them to say I love pork, this is another (new) issue. Where they (reportedly) killed unarmed people and took war trophies of human flesh.

I just want to make sure you're aware that this isn't the same thing as the first video. I wouldn't want you to be misconstrued as saying you endorse that type of activity.

H.

troops are supposed to take photos of corpses for identification.

I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.

I did not see them cutting off fingers, raping anyone, killing children, beheading prisoners or double dipping their potato chips in the zesty ranch dip.

those photos are "repulsive" simply because those publicizing them say they're "repulsive".

the photos didn't bother me a bit.

our soldier's job is to kill, not be nice or politically correct.

I say stow the bullshit and let them do their jobs (kill the enemy) already.

[Byte Stryke]

troops are supposed to take photos of corpses for identification.

I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.

I did not see them cutting off fingers, raping anyone, killing children, beheading prisoners or double dipping their potato chips in the zesty ranch dip.

those photos are "repulsive" simply because those publicizing them say they're "repulsive".

the photos didn't bother me a bit.

our soldier's job is to kill, not be nice or politically correct.

I say stow the bullshit and let them do their jobs (kill the enemy) already.

this goes a little further than ID Photos

In one incident in May last year, the article says, during a patrol, the team apprehended a mullah who was standing by the road and took him into a ditch where they made him kneel down.

The group's leader, Staff Sergeant Calvin Gibbs, then allegedly threw a grenade at the man while an order was given for him to be shot.

Afterwards, Gibbs is described cutting off one of the man's little fingers and removing a tooth.

The patrol team later claimed to their superiors that the mullah had tried to threaten them with a grenade and that they had no choice but to shoot.

If its an ID Photo, the teams I worked with never wanted to be in the shot.
Those are typical trophy photos accompanied with some seriously negative testimony.

[Hoosier]

I saw a couple of GIs posing for a smiling photo with the corpse of a dearly departed hajji.

Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants?

There are thousands of images, and since Der Spiegel is the German equivalent of Time magazine I will make the assumption for now that they have sufficient proof to make the claims they're printing. I don't think this would be, in any way, representative of the US armed services at large, and would say this is likely another case of a "few bad apples", but I will bet this will result in more retribution killings than Wikileaks dumps.

H.

[Elhuero]

Did you serve in the sandbox? I know (speaking correctly) that a hajji is someone who has gone on the Hajj, the trip to Mecca to walk around the big black cube. I also know that it's used as slang in the same way that Nip and Gerry were used in WWII. My question is, for anyone who actually served in Afghanistan/Iraq, is the term used for any Iraqi, or only for confirmed enemy combatants?

There are thousands of images, and since Der Spiegel is the German equivalent of Time magazine I will make the assumption for now that they have sufficient proof to make the claims they're printing. I don't think this would be, in any way, representative of the US armed services at large, and would say this is likely another case of a "few bad apples", but I will bet this will result in more retribution killings than Wikileaks dumps.

H.

nope. I'm what one former marine at glocktalk called a 4F walter mitty.

I was under the impression that hajji was an interchangeable pejorative for "bad guy", but I could be wrong.

and we agree that it's just "a few bad apples"

the enemies' good apples bother me a whole lot more than our bad ones.

[Mick-Boy]

Hoosier,

The mission of a Marine Corps rifle squad is to locate, close with and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver. In the defense it's to repel the enemy's assault with fire and close combat.

To most people those are just words. To a lot of Marines even, they are something you have drummed into you in basic and then regurgitate verbatim in order to impress promotion boards.

But at the pointy end, words like fire and close combat begin to have meaning. They mean yelling and screaming and dying. They mean lives that are changed forever in fractions of a second. No matter how much chest thumping some people want to do, killing another human being isn't something you just shrug off.

Please understand, I'm not trying to talk down to you in anyway. I don't know you, your background or what you've experienced in life. I'm also not trying to excuse the actions of the soldiers in the article you posted. I'm in Afghanistan right now and the actions of those soldiers are not new news. Based on what I've read, their actions rank up there with the Mahmudiyah killings in 2006. Despicable acts that should be punished under the UCMJ. Some photos of dead Afghans in a German rag have little/nothing to do with that though.

The American people have had greater access to the face of war over the last decade than we have at any point in our history. The unhappy truth that access has forced us to face is that war isn't clean or pretty. When people (whether friend or foe) die it's messy and unpleasant. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that some people handle it better than others.

I would ask you to try to have a little empathy for an 18 or 20 year old Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman who was told his mission in life was to locate, close with and destroy his enemy and then punished for acting violent. More often than not this is failure in leadership.

Counter-Insurgency is difficult work and not for everyone.

I can tell you that I've spent my entire adult life carrying a weapon in war zones. I travel around this AO quite a bit and have the opportunity to work with everyone from Tier 1 operators (guys who really rate the title "operator") to National Guard weekend warriors. I can tell you with out a doubt that there are some great people over here trying to do good work. Please just try to keep that in mind when you see videos of young dumb Soldiers being young dumb Soldiers(or Sailors/Marines/Airmen).