Home defense, questions....

[Tora]

I think there's more than a hundred of us. Which 1.3 of us got hit?
2C

Me and my mine, kind of.
As for you that use a SG's, Try shooting at a hostage target at about 20 ft and see if you like what you see. If you are shooting slugs, you'll be fine, if not...

[Hyunchback]

Okay, you win.

I'm not going to post what I could cleverly reply about the car. Anything posted in this thread that could justify a shooting would be fodder for a plaintiff's attorney in a civil suit or even a prosecuting attorney in a criminal trial.

So, you win. You got my car.

Stupid sucker! It gets less than 20 miles to the gallon and needs to be washed!

[BadShot]

Stupid sucker! It gets less than 20 miles to the gallon and needs to be washed!

eheheh ... yeah never mind [roll]
=====

No I wouldn't want to shoot a perp who is holding a hostage but that changes everything!!!! But so does a cop showing up in the middle of things because you and he are buddies and he forgot his coffee cup.

The point is that there are too many variables to cover every possible situation. If you give thought to how to defend your home, discuss it with the other folks living there and have a viable plan for the fundimentals, all should be fairly OK.

This is common sense folks, if we wish to discuss the finer points of every possible situation, then lets do it in another thread. Right now, what do you do? That was where all of this started

[Mule]

As this thread has been developing, I have been both learning and thinking.

Our household understanding is this;
1) If there is a loud noise in the house, nobody is allowed to check it out other than me. If for any reason they see my flashlight (they all know what my tac lights look like, I have shown them...) they are not to move.
2) if I have to shoot, I will if nobody is behind the crook.
3) I will not shoot if there is a hostage, unless there is a lot of room between them and the crook. If there is a gun to their head, then forget it. Me shooting the crook in the head will only cause him to pull the trigger (muscles contract as a reaction to force). I'm not a sniper, I'm not trained to make an incapacitating shot. I drop the shotgun, they make a mistake and end up with a bunch of 40 S&W holes in them........ Theoretically....

I like the shotgun now more than my XD, the descussions here helped that. That's not to say I won't have the pistol tucked into my waist band.

For practice, I like to shoot at the local combat and defensive competitions. I am waiting for some of the local instructors to put on a low light/no light class for pistol and whatever other weapons they will teach. I also target shoot and dry fire practice as well. I like Gabe S.'s book. It showed me just how much of a neophyte I was/am.

I'm sure there is holes in my plan, but we had to start somewhere. I have 6yr old and 12yr old daughters plus wife and her mother. Two in the basement, three in the upper level. Psychotic dog in my closet (no joking, big walk in closet).

Greg

[jesseb]

pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"

Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.

actually i have found that a short barrel pistol, take my .38 spec. detective for example can be quite hard on the ears also. i think having the barrel so much farther away helps, but yeah, the echos gotta be a killer.

but really now, how concerned with your hearing are you going to be when you are fearing for your life or the lives of others???
and a couple 12ga blasts arnt going to permanantly hurt anything, at least i dont think. im not a hearing expert. but i have shot many guns w/o protection (yeah stupid, you pay on the drive back) even the click of the turn signal hurts.

anyways, easy to use, quite powerful at close range. and its more of a point and shoot, easy to hit or at least skim target at close range even at the waist! yeah, i believe 00 buckshot is 9 pellets at around 30cal each flying pretty darn fast at the muzzle. they'd probably cause more damage than a auto 9mm (also a .30cal i believe, well .38 but isnt that still considered .30cal??) mp5 holding down on 10 shots. the jackets provides more penetration though. which isnt always good anyways, especially in a home! some people think a .22 is more of a toy than anything. worthless for home defense, which most cases they are. but the lack of penetration power can cause it to bounce inside, like between ribs causing extreme internal damage... way more than an extreme round for defense, like a .308

anyways, once again, im my mind theres no beating the 12ga pump. even a cheap one (meaning mossberg) is quite reliable and easy to use.
i had problems with a couple 870s ive had though, amazingly enough. being standard police issue forever youd think it would be better. i had 2 brand new ones, one was just bottom line 18 or 20" and another was the mariner, the nickel plated one. it was quite heavy and screwed up more than the original one! wont buy one of those again, i have had great luck with the beretta 1201fp semi. excellent gun. all interchangeable with benelli parts and same gas system. you have to use at least med loads though, wont cycle the cheapo target $4 box shells. if i had the money and knew where to get one, i would buy another, favorite shotgun of all time. light recoil, rifle sights, and it worked flawlessly!!! anyways im bored and i like to talk about guns. sorry about the long ass post

[jesseb]

pump or auto, name your poison. The ultimate home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun"

Although I agree that a shotgun can be a very effective home defense gun, I am just not ready to give up my hearing discharging a shotgun in close quarters with no muffs. Other rounds from hand guns or carbines can get the job done without sacrificing your ears.

ok had to look it up. i remember my .45 seems to be very loud... you closer to the noise producer. here are some stats - anything over like 85 for periods of time will cause hearing loss....

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)

.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 _" barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 _" barrel 161.50dB


Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB


Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA

.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB


i dont think that the 10 decibels is a deciding factor, when given the choice between rifle pistol and shotgun for inside defense use.

[jesseb]

That would be loud, but as one LEO pointed out;
"most criminals have either walked away from or had a friend walk away from a pistol hit, none have done it with a shotgun, it scares the hell out of them"
The permanent cavity and blood loss is what gets them (per FBI paper I read), pistols just don't always have what it takes. The FBI paper said 90% of pistol victims live.

Greg

correct, 90% survival rate on average from being shot with a pistol. rifle/shotgun (not sure why its not seperated) is more like 30-35%.
but then again, the goal in defense isnt to kill, its to nuetralize the threat, not their life. torso just happens to be the easiest part to hit. but with pistols a lot of the time they dont even know that they are shot. especially when drugs are involved...

i once read a news story about a guy who was hit over 10 times in the chest area with a 9mm pistol. he eventually got on a bus and went to the hospital on his own. i dont know the source of that so dont quote me! but i can see that as possible...

[jesseb]

The reasons I don't like a shotgun for home defense:
You can not dirrect every pellet out of it. Sure at very close range they act like a single mass, but in my house there are open areas 60ft across.
Next, if you rack a pump (unmistakable by the way) and the perp is now afraid for their life, you are now NOT in jeopardy for your life and could possibly get crusified in court as the make my day law doesn't protect you anymore; at least that could be argued.
Lastly, I've used an AR in 9mm for years for house clearing, and trust it with my life. Those 32 rounds in a single mag help too. Mind you I don't trust a 9mm handgun with a single shot, but I don't ever plan to shoot someone with one shot. You shoot until the target no longer presents itself as a threat...which is incapacitation.

The following Officer's report would read like this,"Sir, why did you shoot the victim 32 times?" Response from shooter, "I'm the victim, he was in my house and every time a bullet hit him he would move so I would shoot again. I stopped at 32 bullets because my weapon was empty and he didn't move while I reloaded."

In all seriousness; shotguns are great for unskilled home defense, but with proper training there are better options.

also though, you may have 60ft of open space in one place but first thats not average. and then most shootings (civilian to civilian) either defense or criminal happen at a distance of less than 5ft. unless you dumping round after round (or auto, an mp5, yeah, but i still wouldnt choose it over the trusty 12ga) i dont see the 9mm being effective enough!!
and what about armor? highly unlikely but, well, neither will penetrate but the power of even a weak birdshot target load will seriously hurt and put just about anyone on the ground. we've all seen the hollywood BofA shootout, their 9mms didnt seem to affect those guys at all!

[jesseb]

A dead perp won't be telling anyone that you made him fear for his life and he tried to escape. If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.

not really true. if you have an escape method and choose to hunt and kill your probably going to get screwed. if not in legally then for sure in a civil suit, the family can take everything you own!

you can only use deadly force, wether in your home or on the street if your life or someone elses life is in immediate danger. if you can flee then you can avoid that danger. its not open criminal hunting grounds. but if you feel in danger, then thats hard to argue with. theres a criminal inside your home. who knows their intent.


now on the other hand, if you have kids or family, or really anyone that could be in immediate danger if you dont act then even though you can escape you can still protect.

[jesseb]

If he (or she) is in your house and doing something illegal then you can kill them. They don't have to represent themselves as a threat to you.

WRONG

From 18-1-704 2(a)
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury

It's called homicide and wrongful death. If the bad guy is no longer a threat, the make my day law will no cover you guys; also just because someone is breaking a law does not give you a right to kill them...or attempt the same

CRS 18-1-704
Case Law Rulings:
When an initial aggressor withdraws from an encounter ......the initial victim continues the attack, the victim then becomes the aggressor and is no longer entitled to act in self-defense. People v. Goedecke, 730 P.2d 900 (Colo. App. 1986).
Right to kill in self-defense is not limited to cases where assailant intends to commit a felony. Ritchey v. People, 23 Colo. 314, 47 P. 272 (1896).

I'm not trying to start a pi55ing match, but I just wanted people to know they can not attempt to kill someone just because they are in your house. Being in the house is illegal if you didn't invite them in--trespassing.

excellently said! i should read the whole this whole thing before i start responding... not trespassing though, inside your home with obvious intent to commit a crime = burglary