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Originally Posted by Elhuero
I am glad I could lighten the mood. I am just saying I am more willing to see your side if you can cite a legitimate source that agrees with that (in almost all cases, not just this one).
Any discussion of the spirit of the law is purely an exercise in opinion. So I guess in your eyes unless I'm a cop my opinion is not legitimate and I should shut up and be a good prole and just do what I'm told by my superiors. And I'm sure a published author and Cato fellow like Radley Balko doesn't count.
This is one of those discussions that is as pointless as debates on drug legalization. Too many in government and law enforcement see the constitution as an impediment and until that changes the debate is not going to go anywhere.
As for what constitutes military tactics and equipment I'd say full auto, flashbangs, dynamic entries, APCs ... these are things that cross the line.
Again, I still think SWAT (which stands for Special Weapons And Tactics for those that have forgot or didn't know) still has a limited role in civilian law enforcement. And those are hostage situations, active shooter situations or situations where quick decisive action are necessary to save lives that are in immediate danger (not for the sake of protecting evidence or keeping criminals from getting away).
Modern liberalism is based on the idea that reality is obligated to conform to one's beliefs because; "I have the right to believe whatever I want".
"Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
"Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people."
-Penn Jillette
A World Without Guns <- Great Read!
Well now that you have admitted to knowing nothing there is no point in talking about it further. Good job.
Posse Comitatus prevents the military from enforcing civilian law. You are enferring more intent than is stated in the law.
Give me one credible reference to equipment and tactics being a mitigated factor of defining military vs LE by any case law or law currently in existence in this country, please. Having dealt with Posse Comitatus intimately while a USAF Federal Agent for 11 years and taking over a dozen legal classes for my academy, criminal justice degree, and while working on my BS in criminalistics, I'm fairly confident you will not find anything to support this stance in the slightest.
Posse Comitatus doesn't prevent the government from using the military from becoming police like. In 1957 Eisenhower sent Federal troops to Little Rock, AR to enforce the Brown ruling and intrigrate the schools. Additionally, the President can suspend Posse Comitatus in it's entirety "to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy, if it—(1) so hinders the execution of the laws of that State, and of the United States within the State, that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law ...” (http://supreme.justia.com/constituti...forcement.html)
So, unless you have more than your own opinion on the matter, no.
Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to be.
Anyone that thinks war is good is ignorant. Anyone that thinks war isn't needed is stupid.
This story is riddled with crap-
Resume-
I used to work with several medics on P.C. SWAT who worked in one of the fire houses I was stationed at a lot- P.C.S.O. pulled their medics from Northwest fire outside of Tucson, at least they did 2 years ago and I haven't heard this has changed..
If they with held care, it means they ran without their medics, which means the raid went down without much planning. Drexel heights is a long way from town, it would not suprise me at all if proper EMS response was in the neighborhood of half hour, even code three. The area shares its boxes with a over-55 town that eats up the ambulances.
As to you guys getting heated about this-
The anti-cops guys aren't pissed at the cops (as best as I can tell) they are pissed at the policies. If you are from DC you can be pissed and defensive, if you are a street cop, they are more worried about you, and your family than you may think. No-knock type raids don't just put unlucky home owners at risk, cops get shot too. Other end of this is the $$$$, its not like the settlement for this is coming from the cops, its coming from the tax payers, I don't want my money paying for F*$k ups, I want it fixing roads and building schools.
As to the legality, Posse Comitatus does indeed prevent the military from acting on US soil as police. That said, turning peace officers into swat cops, really pushes this. The "black rifle" comparison falls flat. A better gun based comparison to laws would be the ATFs rules on intent. Machine Guns are illegal, that doesn't mean you can make a man-portable Gatling gun and be GTG. Creating SWAT teams to conduct raids of this type, gives the impression that the government had its power restrained, and subsequently found a loop hole to get around it. This is what was meant by "spirit of the law." Illegal, no, ethical, probably not. I agree, that in part this does relate back to military type gear being limited, as the military uses "military type gear." That was part of the purpose of this law. Claiming this law is like an assault weapon law fails as the constitution protects civilian "militias," very much military type organizations, while the law limits government "military" forces acting on US soil. This in no way is a statement made to say "cops should be able to protect themselves." Not true, I say we gun the hell out of cops, but they have to keep it outside unless hostages/risk of life/etc., not a search warrant for drugs on bad intel.
-there is a saying around fire houses "nothing for nothing, everything for everything." it means if a house is burning to the ground with no one in it, you let it burn and pour water from the outside, nothing to save, don't risk anything. If there are people inside, you go in and get them out, everything risked for the chance to save someone. Seems like this applies here too.
Why people are pissed- This forum is made up of people tired of Government control, this spreads beyond left leaning policies such as health care and high taxes, sometimes government control comes in the form of police power. Frankly, if you are talking to a true right leaning person, they will want less government, in all its forms. Many on here may see a botched drug raid as more of our money (that we don't have) poured into a worthless war on drugs that doesn't need to exist to begin with. I could go on with "fairness" but its been said already, the LEOs know the punishment will probably take the form of money, but the public see's this as murder, at best aggravated manslaughter, both crimes that get people jail time, and if a country is going to follow the rule of law, no man can be above it.
As to the guys pissed at cops, try to be clear, its easy to generalize, but if I was to get on here and start ranting about "pilots" being worthless, power hungry, jerks, because I was treated poorly by one, just gets the rest pissed. The issue isn't cops, even the cops on PCSO's SWAT team, its the policies that direct them, and that, is our responsibilty, as the voting public. We made it with the constant War on Crime, this is our monster. Someone smarter than me said something about safety costing us liberty years ago, this is just another manifestation of it.
Please don't jump to the "you aren't a cop you don't understand" as if you do, I expect you to jump to protect the POTUS the next time someone complains, as I doubt you have had that job. Not to be rude, but I have heard it before.
Thank you for your service, honestly, you do a valuable job that our country needs. We are just a hard country to please, thankfully.
how about popular mechanics?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...litary/4203345
an article from fox news written by a policy analyst for the CATO institute?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html
I googled swat and army rangers and found these photos.
they don't look alike at all!
your comment made me laugh because you're a LEO, trying to argue that the idea that the militarization of police pushes the boundaries of posse comitatus is just some silly opinion that has no basis.
that's like nambla arguing that they should be able to sponsor a boy scout troop. after all, they're a non profit that does community service, right?
swat teams serve knock warrants at 9am because they have to do something to justify their budget.
and like I've said.... would that I could go to the lengths police do to make myself feel safe.
now, it is true that not all the facts are known.
but if it comes out that the officers really screwed he pooch, what really is going to happen to them? not a whole heckofa lot.
I don't hate cops and I'm not passing judgment on this case.
all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it.
they should be held to a higher standard.
That pretty much sums up my position ... although sometimes the verve with which many in law enforcement jump to defend these policies really makes me wonder how many cops wouldn't just love to have the right of Kiri Sute Gomen.
As for the spirit of Posse Comitatus, it was passed during reconstruction when Union Army troops occupied the south in a manner that was much too reminiscent of the Red Coats prior to the revolution. I don't believe that it's too much of a stretch to say that the spirit of Posse Comitatus is in opposition to a paramilitary police force in the United States. Especially when you look at most of the rights enumerated in the bill of rights regarding citizen interaction with agents of the state, they were all written in the same spirit.
Modern liberalism is based on the idea that reality is obligated to conform to one's beliefs because; "I have the right to believe whatever I want".
"Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
"Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people."
-Penn Jillette
A World Without Guns <- Great Read!
I think the main cause of all the bad sentiment of cops is the continued militarization of the police forces of this country.
Like the photos that Elhuero posted, those swat officers look, train, and act like military While that may not violate Posse Comitatus I think it violates the "spirit" of the law and the idea of a free country.
But the wife didn't hear a knock! The cops dragging there feet on giving answers does not look good IMO.
Also, I have to agree with Elhuero here "all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it."
That gets used way to much IMO.
Last edited by Buzzkill69; 05-11-2011 at 20:26.
Just had a thought- sort of related-
If I was a city official, able to make and or change policy, or a cop able to modify tactics. Things like this would get me worried-
Inner city poor- think cops are racist and don't like cops
Big city left leaning types - think cops are brutal and don't like cops
country types, right leaning - dont trust cops, and dont like their bosses
young peope - think cops exist to give tickets and collect money, not wild about cops.
AARP types - like cops fine, but I would be worried if this raid was a WW2 vet with an M1 instead of a Gulf War vet with an AR. They stick together!
Who does this leave that really feels positive about cops? If that was private sector situation, I would be very worried about the continuation of my functioning as a business, as its not, I would be very worried about a very serious shift. I know in Tucson they were talking about firing a bunch of fire fighters and traffic cops, didn't seem to be a lot of tears shed for the cops, where as the firefighters had a huge organization thrown together.
May be time for a change, even if you don't want to. Probably want someone in your corner when funding cuts come rolling down. For example, I very much doubt police pensions would be safe these days if it was put to a vote.
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