Hear someone coming into your house, grab your rifle, get shot 71 times - CLOSED

[SA Friday]

no, we should be able to easily obtain and use any firearms the police do.

full auto laws should be rescinded.

I agree. That's why I enferring Posse Comititus LE/Mil equipement and tactics are the same is dangerous. The difference has to be squarely footed in the different authorities the two act under. The legal ramifications from DC v Heller are not over. We are currently determining just where that line is for law about guns and individual rights in this country. Judge Kennedy called this legal precedence making continuoum as gathering "baggage along the way", and he used the 'baggage' accumulation of the 1st ammendment as the example to follow. Considering the politics and recent SC appointee, the baggage could easily be against our desires as for our desires, especially if it comes from douchebaggery like the 9th Circuit Court and then is held up by SC appeal. Taking a stance that LE and Military are spiritually the same based on weapons and tactics easily leads to that line for gun ownership falling short. Ever live in England? If the commonwealth don't have guns, then the cops don't need them either. Show me one instance in history where any government disarmed their LE before they disarmed their citizens.

[BigMat]

I agree. That's why I enferring Posse Comititus LE/Mil equipement and tactics are the same is dangerous. The difference has to be squarely footed in the different authorities the two act under. The legal ramifications from DC v Heller are not over. We are currently determining just where that line is for law about guns and individual rights in this country. Judge Kennedy called this legal precedence making continuoum as gathering "baggage along the way", and he used the 'baggage' accumulation of the 1st ammendment as the example to follow. Considering the politics and recent SC appointee, the baggage could easily be against our desires as for our desires, especially if it comes from douchebaggery like the 9th Circuit Court and then is held up by SC appeal. Taking a stance that LE and Military are spiritually the same based on weapons and tactics easily leads to that line for gun ownership falling short. Ever live in England? If the commonwealth don't have guns, then the cops don't need them either. Show me one instance in history where any government disarmed their LE before they disarmed their citizens.

Agreed, no desire to disarm the police here. Just a change in how they go about using said arms.

[KevDen2005]

how about popular mechanics?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...litary/4203345

an article from fox news written by a policy analyst for the CATO institute?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193652,00.html


I googled swat and army rangers and found these photos.








they don't look alike at all!

your comment made me laugh because you're a LEO, trying to argue that the idea that the militarization of police pushes the boundaries of posse comitatus is just some silly opinion that has no basis.
that's like nambla arguing that they should be able to sponsor a boy scout troop. after all, they're a non profit that does community service, right?

swat teams serve knock warrants at 9am because they have to do something to justify their budget.

and like I've said.... would that I could go to the lengths police do to make myself feel safe.

now, it is true that not all the facts are known.

but if it comes out that the officers really screwed he pooch, what really is going to happen to them? not a whole heckofa lot.

I don't hate cops and I'm not passing judgment on this case.

all I'm saying is when they do foxtrot the entire situation the "well, they're just normal people like anyone else" line gets used, and that's the end of it.

they should be held to a higher standard.

I certainly don't agree with what you are saying, however, thank you for providing some support.

I never said there is no rational basis to connect posse comitatus to the military, I just implied I don't agree with that and my comment was if one shows me support for what your opinion is. Yelling out stuff in the middle of a room is going to get you nowhere except making everyone believe you are crazy.

Yes I am a cop, however, I still believe in the Constitution first, unlike most would believe that I would do, for some reason, even though I took an oath to it.

Having served as an Infantryman for seven years and worked in law enforcement for six years I can say that they may look the same on the exterior (somewhat) but they don't act nor operate the same in most ways.

Furthermore, I have accused our own SWAT team for looking too military. When the army switched to the ACU, they thought it was a good idea to do the same thing and then were upset when several people thought they were in the Army. Of course I had to explain to them that they are wearing an Army Combat Uniform.

Having been on calls with our SWAT team I completely disagree that the reason why they waited until 9am to serve a warrant was to justify some budget requirement. Is it true that budgets are misused or that SWAT teams don't need everything they have, probably, I am not a SWAT officer so I couldn't tell you for sure, but I would probably have to say yes.

I don't disagree with you for a second that police officers should be held to a much higher standard. They are equipped and charged with responsibility that not everyone has and can remove a person's civil liberties. Because of this, the highest level of scrutiny should be given when recruiting (don't get me started on hiring practices) for this position and officers should be given the highest amount of training possible when it comes to both law and engaging in any type of life threatening situation. Sadly, some departments have the budget for this and some do not.

I still disagree with you if they screwed the pooch that they won't be in big trouble. Again, my experiences both personal and with officers that I know, has been that minor screw ups are major penalties. Again, this may depend on department, state, union, and quality of the investigation.

[BigMat]

I still disagree with you if they screwed the pooch that they won't be in big trouble. Again, my experiences both personal and with officers that I know, has been that minor screw ups are major penalties. Again, this may depend on department, state, union, and quality of the investigation.

Would you mind defining "big trouble?" I don't say this to be an ass, I am really curious what the crime vs. punishment ratio compared to public, is for LEOs.

[KevDen2005]

Would you mind defining "big trouble?" I don't say this to be an ass, I am really curious what the crime vs. punishment ratio compared to public, is for LEOs.

Not knowing anything about the case other than the one article nor knowing department policies it would be very hard to tell. What I can tell you is this, I have known a couple officers involved in shootings. In our state, if you are in a shooting, you are treated as a homicide suspect would be. The officers that I have known said they were interrogated as if they were criminals the whole time and were advised to get a lawyer. Most of the time situations like that are handled by an outside agency so that the investigator is neutral. It's been my experience that cops are paranoid and even though another person is a cop, they don't trust them just because of that.

That kind of rambles but I hope that helps.

[KevDen2005]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add. If an officer commits a homicide he will go through all the same things as if he wasn't an officer. Judges and DA's take into account criminal histories, intent, etc.

[Clint45]

I hope they have a lot better justification for kicking in a man's door and machinegunning him to death in front of his family than some drug addicted felon told a narcotics officer he bought drugs at that address.

Apparently, this guy is a veteran and a homeowner who was married with children and working nights and overtime at a legitimate job, the rifle was legally owned and he did not exit his home with it.

If this goes down the way dozens of similar cases have, it will be covered up and no-one will lose their job over this. Maybe the city will throw a million dollar settlement at the wife to shut her up. If he didn't have such a solid background and the media wasn't expressing such outrage they might just claim they found drugs. It seems they already claimed that their red lights were flashing, they announced themselves repeatedly, and then the deceased, knowing they were police, pointed his weapon at them anyway and stated "I've got something for you" or words to that effect. Apparently the original story was he fired at them first, but now it looks as if that wasn't so. I'm familiar with several cases where an officer's AD resulted in everyone firing their weapons. Oops.

I'm opposed to raids of this sort in all but very rare and select cases, perhaps when an armed violent fugitive is known to be inside. No reason why they couldn't have arrested him and presented a search warrant as he was going to or from work.

[BigMat]

It does, appreciated.

I had in my head this kind of idea-

I'm going to lunch at a friends place, he says the wrong address, I walk into the wrong house (old people in AZ did this all the time), find a dude with an AR, I draw my CCW and kill him. I bet I get the book thrown at me.

(hypothetical worst case) cops raid the wrong house, find man inside with firearm, man dies. Cop catch's a suspension.
- I could cook up a better hypothetical, I understand they had a better reason for the raid than hot dogs, but not if it was in error. Not allowed to screw up when live ammo is involved. Just seemed like a double standard.

[KevDen2005]

It does, appreciated.

I had in my head this kind of idea-

I'm going to lunch at a friends place, he says the wrong address, I walk into the wrong house (old people in AZ did this all the time), find a dude with an AR, I draw my CCW and kill him. I bet I get the book thrown at me.

(hypothetical worst case) cops raid the wrong house, find man inside with firearm, man dies. Cop catch's a suspension.
- I could cook up a better hypothetical, I understand they had a better reason for the raid than hot dogs, but not if it was in error. Not allowed to screw up when live ammo is involved. Just seemed like a double standard.

Edit, I misread what you wrote

[TFOGGER]

I'm opposed to raids of this sort in all but very rare and select cases, perhaps when an armed violent fugitive is known to be inside. No reason why they couldn't have arrested him and presented a search warrant as he was going to or from work.

Or served the warrant 2 hours earlier, when he was known to have been at work.

The attitude that someone can scream "Police", kick my door in, and open fire if I don't fall submissively to the floor, strikes me as ridiculous. Not one member here would hesitate to defend themselves. And most likely, that person would end up dead. Criminals have been known to scream "Police" to obtain compliance during home invasion robberies, which are apparently not uncommon in Pima county.

Ask yourself "What would I do if my wife woke me up, saying that she heard someone moving around outside?". I l know what I would do, and it might cost me my life someday...