Question for the Conceal Permit holders

[Tweety Bird]

We're doing a 4-day defensive handgun class at Front Sight Nevada, and just finished day 3. One of the range instructors posed a scenario that I'd never thought about, and thought I'd toss it into the mix here.

Here it is:

You're at a crowded mall/theater/supermarket/name-your-place. Some nutjob walks in with a rifle and starts shooting randomly at others. You're in a position to take him out with the Glock you carry on your side, so you take the shot, put the bad guy down and all is well, right?

What about the other Conceal Permit holders in the area? If they saw the whole thing, they become witnesses. But what if they came in late and all they saw was YOU doing the shooting. What are you going to do to convince the others around you who are carrying, that you're the GOOD guy?

And to carry it a step further: What if the shooter had only shot one person, and that person he shot was THE BAD GUY? IOW, you got there late, didn't see the opening scenes, and now you either have or are going to shoot someone who doesn't deserve it?

Point is, we who carry don't wear a uniform or a badge, and it might be difficult for others in the crowd to decide whether you're the good guy (you just shot the bad guy), or if you're a good guy who just shot another good guy who had just shot a bad guy.

They present a lot of different things like that out here. If any of you get a chance to take one of their courses, you should do it. This is our second time and both times, they've presented things like this which really get my mind in a whirl.

[Great-Kazoo]

as a CCW holder you are under no obligation to do anything any where, any time. Unless you are on site from the beginning of the shooting it is hard to discern who, what ,when etc.

An example is the shooting in NY where the one cop without ID is seen with an AR? going towards a shooting, looking to intervene. He is shot by a transit officer who hears GUN and then sees the od cop with the rifle and engages him, ending his life. The off duty cop had NO ID, NO Visible badge around his neck as required by the NYPD nor did he ID himself as LE when running towards the gunshots.
I am unable to go in to more detail of this incident because i was not there. However having numerous family members on the on with NYPD. I can tell you this was a very ugly incident where the transit cop who did pull the trigger has been demonized to the point of needing LE protection for his family. These guys are LE's and this shit happened to one of their own.

What happens if someone else hears shot's then see's you with a gun, shooting, and takes a shot at you. I would YELL PLEASE DROP YOUR WEAPON as loud as possible (if time and circumstance allowed) Then continue shout this phrase over and over until they either complied or you did what is necessary to Stop the Threat.
This gives you some form of ID to others in the area showing you are trying to disarm the aggressor and doing what is necessary if they do not comply.
Oh yeah Make sure you ask for an attorney, prior to opening your mouth.
Anything you say CAN and WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU.
Last sentence is not said or meant to be an attack, or derogatory statement against any LE's

[275RLTW]

Trick questions....

If you do not posess the common sense to determine if the shooter is engaging someone, then assesses and scans for other threats vice just shooting indescriminately at others, then stop carrying immediately. Not to be rude, however there is a certain level of responsibility that comes with the decision to end someone's life and if you are not there yet, no sweat, just stop carrying. Questions like that that remove common sense from the equasion are loaded questions and can cause you to develop the wrong ideals by leading you down the wrong path to begin with. FS is not highly known in the professional training community (I will hold my reservations about them & their lack of safety) and their philosophies are very misleading & detrimental to intuitive thinking. Glad to hear you got in some good trigger time, however look at ALL scenarios with an open mind, not within their black & white framework.

[Graves]

If you're nowhere near the threat, as a ccw holder there's no reason to play hero and run in guns blazin'. Get your loved ones the f*** out of there and don't turn back. Before you draw down on anybody you need to be 110% sure you've identified the threat.

[spleify]

I think if you walk in to an establishment and hear/see shot(s) being fired, and your very first reaction is to pull your side arm and start firing at said other firearm shooter without accessing the situation...well then you might not be the right person to have a CCW and carrying a side arm.

If someone would just shoot someone because they have a firearm and not first access the situation, surroundings and circumstances and (like mentioned above) ask the gunman nicely to put his weapon down and step back, if he's a good guy, he will, if he's swings around with a look of death in his eyes and says " I'm gonna blow your "fu%k@n head off"....well then you may have a reason to draw on them if not then IMO they may not be all that stable and maybe a different weapon might be a better decision for them...maybe a sling shot...those can REALLY hurt too...

Remember, being a good witness is almost always better than being a good shot.

[topshooter]

Well....one to think about ...but not for long.... Drop the bad guy - if it is a SAFE shot.....No folks in the way -- either in front - or behind the bad shooter... Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW... Then holster - your weapon - out of sight....so no one shoots you ... Then things will take care of themselves...as folks gather and COPS Show up.... Been there. In the Military - At a Bank in SUBIC BAY...Philippines...2 US MARINES came on a ROBBERY...they stood there ...with their hands on their pistols...and -- 2 PHILIPPINE MARINES burst in - pushed the US MARINES out of the way and shot down the robber - who was armed with a SHOTGUN.. You do not take time to think.... You ACT...immediate - to save lives... It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough... Been there also.. I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL.. I had to drop a dude on the Ship - doped up... But - he was lucky . I did not have time to grab my 1911 -- so I had to use the RIOT BATON... Did the job well... No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it ... But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better - and no one will be shooting at you. SEMPER FI

[DFBrews]

Elipsis... can be over kill

[Zundfolge]

This is one of those dumb scenarios that CCW trainers posit to make themselves look more clever than they really are.

If you give this serious concern then don't carry a gun ... being confused for a badguy by other CCWers (or the police) after a shooting is a possibility but not a likelihood (of course so is being killed by a falling asteroid, but you still leave the house without a helmet don't you?). But if you're really worried about it than just don't ever defend yourself and then you don't have to worry about it.

That and what coloccw said.

[Tweety Bird]

I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. Anyway, this is NOT a CCW class at all. It's a defensive handgun class and the question was asked of people who already possess a carry permit. Also remember that there are people here from all over the United States, who have to live with laws that are much more strict than we are "blessed" with in CO.

Anyhow, I'm not asking whether or not you should take the shot or not. I'm not asking what the law says about what you should or shouldn't do. That's a decision only you can make. And it's a decision you'll have to live with.

What I'm asking is how do you ensure that YOU aren't taken out by another carry permit holder. OK, you can put your pistol away, and that works if the BG is completely out of commission. But what if he's still fighting back, or is threatening to do so? You still have him covered, and someone else can see the commotion and assume that you're the bad guy.

Maybe worse yet, maybe it was YOU who just shot the good guy who just shot the bad guy. Adrenalin and excitement change the perspectives of events and time. See what I mean?

(During the lectures here, plenty of these things come up. We hear it in the crowds all the time: "TAKE HIM OUT". I liken this to the folks who spurt the old platitude, "They can have my guns when they pry them out of my cold, dead fingers." Really? If the black helicopters are hovering above your house, and you're surrounded by men in dark suits who wear sunglasses and have a radio microphone on their lapel, and they're all pointing M-16s at you and your family, are you REALLY going to let them kill you for your guns? You might be martyred, but you're still dead as Elvis. Now, I'm as big a supporter of the 2A as the next guy but I'm not letting my family die for some slogan.)

Back on track.

I'm certainly not suggesting there are any right or wrong answers here, and anyone who says there are, is a fool. Slamming it as a "bad question" is also BS, because it certainly is something that might come up, as shown in Jim's reply.

And for some "experts" to suggest that I should immediately stop carrying simply because I post this scenario, well, I question YOUR judgment, as well, because God didn't bless you with some superior knowledge of what someone should do here, than He did for the next person. Go ahead, blast FS if you must, I don't give a shit; I don't have a dog in that fight because I'm not competing with them for my $$. I'm just a student here and they ask questions that get us thinking about things that many don't consider before they decide to strap that .45 to their leg. Remember, the purpose of posing the question is NOT to make you decide whether or not you should shoot. The reason is to make you think about the responsibility a person takes by making the decision to carry. And if someone thinks these things through, instead of merely attacking the question, they come to exactly the conclusion that was posed by a couple of folks already; that is, your assessment of the situation will form your shoot-don't shoot decision.

And therein lies the rub.

[topshooter]

Ahem..... But...I am ....I restore Antique Cars..