Modern Technique is NOT the gospel

[mcantar18c]

Long read, but I hope to start an interesting discussion and maybe we can all learn something from each other.
Maybe this should go in the Training forum... I feel we should have a Gunfighting Techniques forum... mods can put it where they please.

I had a conversation/friendly argument with a loved one's significant other, who happens to be a LEO, about gunfighting techniques. Being a LEO he's been trained by his department, and being on the force for as long as he has he's pretty set in the ways he was trained.
He sees MT as the set way of doing things, that's what his dept's training is based on. To engage a threat with his firearm, he stands in place, draws, goes into the weaver position or something similar, lines up the sights, and squeezes the trigger... with no real thought put into the threat other than IDing it as a threat. Distance between him and the BG only changes how close his muzzle is to the BG's forehead. I brought up Point Shooting with him and he pretty much disregarded it... how can you put precisely aimed fire to a target if you aren't aiming? The idea that you don't need to do that is ridiculous to him. I went over some point shooting progressions with him... firing positions, shooting from the draw, etc... but in his mind you need precise accuracy to win a gunfight, and point shooting is simply ineffective at doing so.
So we broke out the toys. I had a little squirt pistol, he had a nice gas operated airsoft gun (yeah I got the short end of that stick lol). He couldn't understand why he was getting soaked and I only had two welts by the time we were done.
Modern Techique is great. It provides a solid base for learning how to control a handgun. It is NOT, however, the Bible of gunfighting... only a basis to learn off of. A tip of the iceberg, if you will. If you're shooting at stationary targets that don't shoot back, MT is just fine, but it is NOT effective in the real world where you can't always get a perfect stance, can't always get a perfect sight picture, can't always have a perfect two handed grip on your weapon. If a BG is in close proximity, or is the proactive shooter in the fight, or is closing in on you with speed, you can't afford to take the time to sit and line up your sights or to attempt to line up your sights while moving. Unfortunately, this is what many CCW instructors and training schools teach. Appelgate/Fairbairn/Sykes method of Point Shooting is also not something to base your training off of, as you will not be able to effectively hit a small stationary target (ex. BG shooting from behind cover). You need to train in BOTH to be effective, plus a ton more... MT and PS are not the only techniques, and neither are perfect. For example, with both you're generally stationary, and you need to be an active, moving target if you don't want to get shot. I'm not a professional, not sharing firsthand information, I'm speaking from the experience of others here... others who have been in multiple gunfights and are still walking, because they understand how to be effective in a gunfight.

Here's a story from someone on a gunfighting forum I'm on, in a recent thread asking for real-world PS experiences:

We had been in Africa 10 hours when we got the call we had to leave the country ASAP with our Principal. Ideally, we would have liked to have used the airport in a city about 15 minutes away, but reports had come back it was crawling with around 100 troops who did not like our principal and they had lots of guns...Plan B was a jungle airstrip about an hour away and the only way to it was an elephant path and according to our local guide, it was frequented by bandits who liked to cut the arms off of white folks and make soup out of them...after discussing it, both options sucked, but Plan B was the one we chose.

Ten minutes into the elephant path, we came across a roadblock. It was a jeep with 4 bandit types, all with AK's and from the looks of their glassy eyes they had been chewing on khat (or cot) (a stimulant weed similar to the cocoa plant) all day and were amped out of their minds. Our total compliment was 4 shooters, our guide (translator) and principal. Immediately our translator disembarked and started chatting, I could tell by the tone, these guys were in a pissy mood and were of the mind to rob the white devils. Our guide started by offering them money, then his watch and rings..this appeased one of them, but now the other three wanted some...I knew if they approached the vehicle and saw the small armory of weapons we had stashed throughout the truck things would go south..we decided quickly, 2 of us would stay with the Principal and 2 would go out and try to negotiate these morons out of our way. If anything went down, the truck shooters (with the principal) would be base of fire.

Me and Ian got out, my G30SF in a AIWB with a Tropical shirt over it and a Push Knife horizontal on my belt. I pulled out a gangster roll of Franklins in a rubber band and waved it like a magic tailsman, smiling..Ian did the same, between us, we had around $2K in operating cash. They greedily snatched it our of our hands, all the while I was thinking if they try to search us, things will have get ugly quicker than I wanted it too. The AK Barrel was down but not pointing at me, I could see the safety was off and his finger in the trigger guard, however, he had the gun slung around his body. After some more banter with our guide, it seemed they were appeased, and then I saw them turn their eyes to the truck. I could not allow them to approach that truck, as high and twitchy as they guys were, as soon as they saw guns and our principal, it could go bad QUICK... I quickly glanced at Ian and he nodded to agree with what I was thinking.

A quick sketch of how things were layed out: on both sides of this elephant trail was a natural rain ditch about 3 ft by 3 ft, the lip of the road making a natural defilade, that was where we were heading when things popped off, it would draw fire away from the vehicle. The bandit jeep with 2 shooters sitting in the front seats was about 12 yards from our truck, the other 2 bandits were standing about 5 ft away from me and Ian and we were are about 6 ft away from the front of our truck. My plan was to shoot this guy in front of me and then try to hit the guy in the drivers's seat in the jeep, I only hope Ian could do the same with his guy and the other shooter in the jeep. All the while, I was hoping we would be getting some cover fire as were hauling ass for that ditch, I also considered once the shooting started, what would come rolling down that road? We would have to cross that bridge when it came, we had plenty of firepower to deal with it in the truck. All of this processed in my CPU as I was thinking about my wife and babies at home right now, them probally getting ready for bed right now--funny things run through your mind when you have the prospect of death!

The #1 Bandit yelled something back at his buddies in the jeep and his other partner in front of Ian as he set his eyes on our truck, for some reason he kept his AK at low ready (slung around his body) and started walking toward our truck..at this point I was about 4 ft from him, slightly offset to his left facing me. When he made his first step toward the truck, in one motion, I made a huge step forward and at the same time grabbing the AK by the barrel and gas tube pushing it away from me, since he was attached to the gun by the sling, it swung him away from me at the same time, he was a rather small dude, around 150 lbs, so he literally swung)..during all of this I was accessing my G30 and clearing it with one hand, which was a chore, since I could not use my other hand to lift the shirt, luckily, I was wearing a Woolrich CCW Shirt which had velcro for the bottom so it opened up easily. I remember clearly once the gun was out, it was naturally pointed at this guy's hip/groin area..I worked the trigger, firing two shots, which seemed to crumple his legs. All the time, I still had a grip on that AK and by reflex, he started working the full auto trigger on the AK, the vibration and heat off the AK was a shock, but I kept a grip on it, not wanting that barrel to come my way. I gathered my senses long enough to bring the Glock up and at 2 ft I fired into his face. Once I realized he was down, my attention focused to the jeep bandit, which to my surprise had already been riddled with rounds from our truck shooters..scanning the entire area, I realized all the BG's were down and I had not heard any of the gunfire except my own. We had taken no wounded or casualties, and had 4 EKIA. It had all happened in a span of time that is hard to explain to this day. All in All, I came out with some minor burns on my hands and we had to clean the seats of the truck from our Principals bowels running away on him during the incident. From there on out the Principal earned the nickname "Mr. Maalox".

Notice there's no mention of "I got him in my sights" or "I couldn't get my sights lined up." In a situation like his, or where a BG has a gun to your back at an ATM, or when a BG mugs you on the street, or when a thug approaches you and starts harassing you, or when you're in close proximity to the threat as is common in many civilian encounters, taking the time to aim is unnecessary and can have bad consequences for the good guy.

So, what are your thoughts? How do you train? Why is "X" ineffective?

[SAnd]

You need to look at the situation he is in. Most police don't take the time to do a lot of training. His department are looking at the most effective technique for the limited time of training the average LEO is going to do. You said yourself "You need to train in BOTH to be effective, plus a ton more..." That takes time that a lot of LEO's aren't going to do.

I have no idea what is the best technique to teach someone if they are only going to spend limited time a year on shooting / gunfighting.

What I am trying to say is there are two questions to ask when discussing gunfighting. The first is what is the ideal training / technique. The second is what is the best technique when you you are only going to spend 40 hours a year on shooting/gun handling and gunfighting. -(I use 40 hours because I have no idea how much time the average police department requires of their personnel. I hear a lot of stories of LEO's that only train to pass thier annual or semi-annual qualifications.)-

[mcantar18c]

This is true, but we were talking more about when he's off the clock, CCWing as a civilian when he's out with said loved one and is responsible for her safety.

I don't believe there is one best technique, there are a ton of aspects of a gunfight and the way you handle your weapon is only a small part of it. I have my opinions on the best school and such, but that's another conversation altogether.

The reason I posted this thread is because I hear so many people here and elsewhere glorifying Cooper and the MT without a full understanding of things (not that I claim to know everything, despite what I like to tell the girlfriend).

[bobbyfairbanks]

Just so you know shooting and moving is possible, very possible with staying on your front sight post. Point shooting is great and all but aiming your gun and hitting what your aiming at is of the up most importance if your ever draw your weapon as a civilian. The people in history that have been amazing point shooters trade all the time. Religious training gave them the ability to shoot that way. I vary much doubt their is many people that are or where that good at point shooting. Stay on the front sight post and move your feet with practice you will be very fast. Now there is something called instinctive shooting. That is used when engaging targets at close range and fast; but during the course of fire you will still end up on your front sight post.

[Stingray]

mcantar,
I think what you are concerned about is what I call Instinctive shooting. Its similar to PS but for situations requiring faster reflexes and shots. And not stationary targets in front of you.

Try this when you can set up targets in two or three directions. Any cardboard can be used to check shot placement.

First, one target in front of you about three feet. Upon a signal or you decide, simultaneously raise and keep elevated your support arm to maintain separation while drawing your sidearm and stepping back from the target. When your gun clears the holster at approximately waist level point and fire two rounds trying for center mass. Think of your support arm as pushing away an obnoxious person or defecting a strike.

Do this a few time then have the target on the left then right side. A left side target might have you firing when your gun is oriented across your abdomen hence shooting instinctively. Then set up two targets. You can see where this is going. Use your imagination like having a target in front and one behind. Also try three shots.

If you take more than four or five steps before getting off a shot I recommend changing your cover shirt/vest and or holster.

I haven't mentioned a time requirement because I don't know your experience ability equipment or motivation.

After you become comfortable use smaller targets. Bowling pins make for nice vital area targets.

If this is easy you can try carrying a 25 lbs plate to simulate loss of fine motor skills.

[mcantar18c]

You'd be surprised to know that point shooting is very much alive and well, and actually not very difficult. I haven't heard the term "instinctive shooting," but it sounds like we're talking about very similar things. Just because your front sight post is in front of your face doesn't mean you're using it in the MT sense... that is, focusing on your font sight post. What I've found works well for me is, when you can bring the gun up to even get a sight picture and are on the move, is to focus on the target and point (not aim), but with your peripheral vision line up the out of focus sights as well as possible, as this comes very easy for me.
As far as training, I have a different view than some here. I see it as irresponsible and ignorant to not train extensively and in all aspects of the fight... various gunfighting techniques, combatives, threat ID, etc. So many people carry a firearm and see it as some kind of talisman that wards off evil, that merely having it and being able to put acceptable size groupings on paper at the range is all they need. I realize there are many that simply don't have the time or money to train every day or go to the schools, but there are ALWAYS things you can do. I had a conversation with a friend of a friend, that the mutual friend set me up with because the guy was recently married and interested in getting his permit and a handgun to protect his new family. After going over the ins and outs of a few common guns and various carry options, we got into training, and he said something along the lines of "Well we both work full time and have a lot of expenses, we just can't afford to do much training right now. Maybe going to a shooting range here and there but that's it." Then he got defensive when I tried to reason with him... some people are beyond help.
Point is, ability without skill is worthless, and skill without ability is useless.

[mcantar18c]

mcantar,
I think what you are concerned about is what I call Instinctive shooting. Its similar to PS but for situations requiring faster reflexes and shots. And not stationary targets in front of you.

Try this when you can set up targets in two or three directions. Any cardboard can be used to check shot placement.

First, one target in front of you about three feet. Upon a signal or you decide, simultaneously raise and keep elevated your support arm to maintain separation while drawing your sidearm and stepping back from the target. When your gun clears the holster at approximately waist level point and fire two rounds trying for center mass. Think of your support arm as pushing away an obnoxious person or defecting a strike.

Do this a few time then have the target on the left then right side. A left side target might have you firing when your gun is oriented across your abdomen hence shooting instinctively. Then set up two targets. You can see where this is going. Use your imagination like having a target in front and one behind. Also try three shots.

If you take more than four or five steps before getting off a shot I recommend changing your cover shirt/vest and or holster.

I haven't mentioned a time requirement because I don't know your experience ability equipment or motivation.

After you become comfortable use smaller targets. Bowling pins make for nice vital area targets.

If this is easy you can try carrying a 25 lbs plate to simulate loss of fine motor skills.

I'm definitely going to try that, thanks. I have a shooting spot out on the plains that I go to regularly (I hate ranges), and I like to set up targets at various distances or in groups at close range and practice movements, shooting while running, etc.... adding weight is a great idea.

[Great-Kazoo]

one of my main points during CCW instruction is to focus, so to speak, on point shooting. Realizing every incident is different and "If the moment happened" there is never enough time to draw, stance, aim and discharge your firearm. Most shit happens so quickly if a stop watch was running it would probably go no more than 3.6 seconds before a full magazine was emptied. Real life situations are no where near the range time paper / target shooting most everyone does. No matter what you feel or how you were trained and train, The most important thing is to be the one standing and the threat stopped.
Granted shooting from cover is very important as is mag changes etc. However without the basics being practiced every time you get to the range, all else is useless.

[TFOGGER]

However without the basics being practiced every time you get to the range, all else is useless.

Exactly. You can't run if you don't know how to walk.

[bobbyfairbanks]

A friend or a friend hooked me up with his friend and then we didn't get a long

Couldn't help myself