Funny email from a crazy liberal

[clublights]

If you think todays private for profit healthcare system is not just as broke.... well you need to learn more. If you think gov is broke the answer is not all gov is bad. The answer is fix whats wrong. Efficiency is key. Why are we paying 1K for a hammer. There is corruption there and it needs to be fixed.

As to the DMV.... well they are a victim of budget shortcuts. You get what you pay for... or won't pay for. I for one think the DMV does not go far enough in some aspects. We need a better way to test for dumbass drivers. But we also need to find a way to cut through the bureaucratic red tape of the DMV too. In general after living in so many places all over the US, the DMV of Co is average.

I didn't say the current system was perfect.. or even any good.

What I said breaks down to ...

How can you expect a system(.gov) that as repeatedly shown it can't do things right.. to "suddenly" do something right ?

You think that medical care won't eventually come to "budget shortfalls" ?

[TFOGGER]

As to the DMV.... well they are a victim of budget shortcuts. You get what you pay for... or won't pay for.

What you get at the DMV has NOTHING to do with budgets. It has everything to do with petty, bitter government employees vying to do as little as possible for their inflated salaries, while using their authority to stroke their self esteem by making life a living hell for those they allegedly serve. There is no better example of people moving at "the speed of government". They have zero motivation to give half a shit, because they are virtually impossible to fire.

And you think that turning our health care over to similar .gov troglodytes is going to be an improvement?

[hollohas]

Let ME tell you how it works, since I come from a country (Italy) that does actually have public health care:
Guy gets in the hospital and, after coughing for 5 hours in an overcrowded waiting room and infecting everybody around him, gets a doctor to look him up.
However the doctor just came out of school and effectively uses his patients as practicing tools.
He must get enough experience working for cheap (at least he thinks he is working for cheap) in the public health care so he can actually start working in a private clinic and make a lot of money curing people that can afford a REAL doctor.
Or maybe he never made it in the private sector because he is a demotivated loser, you pick.
The doctor misdiagnoses him.
Gives him a cough syrup and sends him home.
You all get into the elevator with him...

I just moved on from a 4 year job with an Italian owned and operated company. One of the head guys of that company told me he pays $5k per month for health insurance for his family of 4. He makes a lot, so he pays a lot. Forklift driver guy in same company that doesn't make a lot (doesn't pay any) gets basically the same healthcare. That's not right.

I have no reason not to trust his word. Bellavite, you maybe able to confirm if that sounds right or not.

Bottom line is this: Someone is paying for those that can't afford it one way or another. Granted, right now we all pay higher costs to cover those that go get treatment and can't afford it. Either way we are paying for those that can't. But I would argue that under a universal system the number of people using the healthcare system who can't pay would be much higher. As it is now, most that can't pay don't go. But if it was free???? You bet those same people that didn't go before would if it was free. And those of us that do pay will be covering the higher cost of larger numbers of "non-payers" using the system. It is insane to think that if it was made free for more people, the costs will go down. Absolute bullshit.

As for nynco saying those non-payers should get treated so they don't get the rest of us sick? That's BS. Mr. Fictional TB guy would not have been diagnosed with TB anyway after hours of waiting. The healthcare system is already overloaded. There aren't enough doctors as is. Add more patients because the care is free and you're increasing wait times and costs. Increased costs mean costs must be managed. Managing costs means less care. No xray of his lungs. Only one minute talking to an actual doctor (if you think that's an exaggeration, look it up. With the current patient load of doctors, that's how much you get. Add more patients and the same amount of doctors...you do the math.)

Result? Cough syrup and a door hitting him in the ass. Getting the family sick in the elevator anyway, just costing more money this time. How's that better?

Because nynco is stuck on TB I have one more comment on that. TB may be on the rise again but it is relativity unheard of in the US. At one time it was a bigger problem...but was it Universal Health Care that reduced it so dramatically?

I will say it again, healthcare is a luxury. I pay a hefty price to give that luxury to my family. And I choose to also chip in so other people can have it too. I just want to choose who I help. I donate to Shriners. I donate to Children's. And I like to think I donate to the VA with my tax dollars. If I could make more of my tax dollars go to the VA instead of to studying the effects of global warming on bacteria in the Colorado river, I would.

To those that can't afford that luxury, too bad. Life's a bitch and I feel for you. Work hard to find a new/better job with better insurance, more income or pray hard that others will choose to help you but it's by no means their obligation.

I'll add that I agree health insurance companies generally suck. I don't doubt they screw people or at least make it hard. My insurance has been good to my family of 3 but that may be because I pay $12k out-of-pocket for premiums and my company matches. Get what you pay for I guess. (BTW - This went up like 50% immediately after Obama Care passed...coincidence? Government tried to help and MY costs went up.)

[Zundfolge]

If you think todays private for profit healthcare system is not just as broke.... well you need to learn more.

Private, for profit healthcare is significantly better than the alternatives. Just like Private, for profit X is ALWAYS better than government run X.

But that belies your real problem. You hate capitalism, thus by extension you hate liberty.

America's health care system is the best in the world. Sure it may appear to cost more than some socialized system (because most of the costs of socialized systems are hidden) but you get better care in the US than anywhere else in the world even if you can't afford it.

Also, if you look at everything else in America its more expensive than most of the rest of the world. Cars, hamburgers, computers, bluejeans, beer ... all these things cost more in America than they do in most of the rest of the world. Of course the average American MAKES A LOT MORE than the most people on the planet.

The only reason to change our system is to create a corrupt system where those with political connections are well taken care of and the rest are just screwed.

If you think gov is broke the answer is not all gov is bad.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
-George Washington

I'd rather not let this in-eloquent force have control over my body thankyouverymuch.

Efficiency is key.

Government (often by design) is the least efficient means of providing goods or services. The inefficiency is because government decisions are made politically, not based on what is the best practice or the most efficient. You add in the tendency for politicians to try to enforce some form of cosmic justice (often called "social justice") on the people and you end up with inequalities and inefficiencies that are downright malicious.

Sure there can be inefficiencies in the private system but most of those are creations of government regulations. Those inefficiencies that are the side effect of a free market are small and can be lived with when compared to the evils of government control.


TANSTAAFL

[clublights]

What you get at the DMV has NOTHING to do with budgets. It has everything to do with petty, bitter government employees vying to do as little as possible for their inflated salaries, while using their authority to stroke their self esteem by making life a living hell for those they allegedly serve. There is no better example of people moving at "the speed of government". They have zero motivation to give half a shit, because they are virtually impossible to fire.

And you think that turning our health care over to similar .gov troglodytes is going to be an improvement?

Tho my hatred of the DMV is not nearly as deep seated as TFog's here.. and trust me I hate the DMV more then I hate traffic cops with ticket quotas at the end of the month!( and thats a big bag of hate right there ... ) his point is my point exactly.

Have you ever thought to yourself " Gee self I really hope my next doctor visit goes just like my last DMV visit".
Heck you can replace DMV with Social Security office, or unemployment office (hmm... both "insurances" run by the .gov) or the court/justice system.

Running with the justice system reference... Would the doctors become like Judges and nurses become the DA's? At least in the courts you have jury's and defense attorneys....

[bellavite1]

I just moved on from a 4 year job with an Italian owned and operated company. One of the head guys of that company told me he pays $5k per month for health insurance for his family of 4. He makes a lot, so he pays a lot. Forklift driver guy in same company that doesn't make a lot (doesn't pay any) gets basically the same healthcare. That's not right.

I have no reason not to trust his word. Bellavite, you maybe able to confirm if that sounds right or not.

Bottom line is this: Someone is paying for those that can't afford it one way or another. Granted, right now we all pay higher costs to cover those that go get treatment and can't afford it. Either way we are paying for those that can't. But I would argue that under a universal system the number of people using the healthcare system who can't pay would be much higher. As it is now, most that can't pay don't go. But if it was free???? You bet those same people that didn't go before would if it was free. And those of us that do pay will be covering the higher cost of larger numbers of "non-payers" using the system. It is insane to think that if it was made free for more people, the costs will go down. Absolute bullshit.

As for nynco saying those non-payers should get treated so they don't get the rest of us sick? That's BS. Mr. Fictional TB guy would not have been diagnosed with TB anyway after hours of waiting. The healthcare system is already overloaded. There aren't enough doctors as is. Add more patients because the care is free and you're increasing wait times and costs. Increased costs mean costs must be managed. Managing costs means less care. No xray of his lungs. Only one minute talking to an actual doctor (if you think that's an exaggeration, look it up. With the current patient load of doctors, that's how much you get. Add more patients and the same amount of doctors...you do the math.)

Result? Cough syrup and a door hitting him in the ass. Getting the family sick in the elevator anyway, just costing more money this time. How's that better?

Because nynco is stuck on TB I have one more comment on that. TB may be on the rise again but it is relativity unheard of in the US. At one time it was a bigger problem...but was it Universal Health Care that reduced it so dramatically?

I will say it again, healthcare is a luxury. I pay a hefty price to give that luxury to my family. And I choose to also chip in so other people can have it too. I just want to choose who I help. I donate to Shriners. I donate to Children's. And I like to think I donate to the VA with my tax dollars. If I could make more of my tax dollars go to the VA instead of to studying the effects of global warming on bacteria in the Colorado river, I would.

To those that can't afford that luxury, too bad. Life's a bitch and I feel for you. Work hard to find a new/better job with better insurance, more income or pray hard that others will choose to help you but it's by no means their obligation.

I'll add that I agree health insurance companies generally suck. I don't doubt they screw people or at least make it hard. My insurance has been good to my family of 3 but that may be because I pay $12k out-of-pocket for premiums and my company matches. Get what you pay for I guess. (BTW - This went up like 50% immediately after Obama Care passed...coincidence? Government tried to help and MY costs went up.)

+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.
It's human nature.
I'll tell you what: I am tired of getting up at 4:30 AM 6 days a week so I can afford shit.
Where would you like me to send you my bills?
Oh, make sure they are paid in time, after all I am an immigrant, you all owe me!

[Zundfolge]

+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.

A right CAN NOT exist where it creates an obligation on another. This is the essence of tyranny and slavery.

Because if a commodity becomes a right (and health care like any other good or service is simply a commodity) than those that provide it are OBLIGATED to provide it, regardless of the ability or even willingness of the recipient to pay for it.

If healthcare is a right than doctors and nurces can be chained to their clinics and forced at gunpoint (all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint) to provide free labor.

This is a system called SLAVERY.

[nynco]

For one I never said gov was to be the only person in the healthcare system. Thats your fear talkin. You will see the whole time that I have said that we need to kill the for profit insurance companies. They should not exits. All insurance should be nonprofit based.

Also the rights of incorporation are not God given. If a company can not afford to pay into some form of healthcare for all its workers then in my opinion that company does not deserve the rights the gov gives under articles of incorporation. Go out of business if you don't do business in the interests of the public. To those that say that is wrong......... My position is right in line with all the founders of this nation. Only the corrupt Supreme Court has ruled Corporations are people. That ruling is so wrong it warrants impeachment for anyone who ruled that way. Corporations are a creation of gov charter. If they can't abide by what ever rules we the people through our gov decide (meaning pay for healthcare for all workers) then they need to close up shop and make way for companies that can get the job done.

[Ronin13]

+1
When Health Care becomes a right, plenty of people will develop a sense of entitlment and let others work hard to pay for it.
It's human nature.
I'll tell you what: I am tired of getting up at 4:30 AM 6 days a week so I can afford shit.
Where would you like me to send you my bills?
Oh, make sure they are paid in time, after all I am an immigrant, you all owe me!

Agree! Once it becomes free for everybody that's when it will get impossible to receive care in a timely manner. Everyone will be going all the time because hell, they don't have to pay. We would all pay high costs for those who cannot. Same thing going on right now, welfare! Abused by those who know how to weasel around it, and those of us who want to be honest, productive members of society, well we get stuck with the bill. If I could I'd only pay my share of what goes to Defense, infrastructure, military pay, VA, and civil service. I would love to not pay for the president's $400K/yr salary, or for Shaniqua and her 20 kids to sit around and not do anything, or perhaps so that Juan can go to the ER and get his stuffy nose taken care of without having to pay anything.... Some things just piss me off Paying for other people's inability to care for themselves is near the top of the list.

[nynco]

A right CAN NOT exist where it creates an obligation on another. This is the essence of tyranny and slavery.

Because if a commodity becomes a right (and health care like any other good or service is simply a commodity) than those that provide it are OBLIGATED to provide it, regardless of the ability or even willingness of the recipient to pay for it.

If healthcare is a right than doctors and nurces can be chained to their clinics and forced at gunpoint (all laws are ultimately enforced at gunpoint) to provide free labor.

This is a system called SLAVERY.

So the Bill of Rights is tyranny and slavery?

Also, healthcare is not a commodity, thats your base mistake. Also the assumption that Dr and Nurses will be chained to their clinics is laughable. Anyone can chose not to take a job. Or are you advocating against the freemarket now?

All laws are not forced at gun point. In a free society you chose your leaders to create your laws. Or do you not understand the fundamentals of America? We are not a kingdom and this is not a theocratic state nor a dictatorship. Now do we need reform to make laws reflect the will of the people more. Heck yea...