I'll leave this little gem here,

[Ronin13]

FDR knew that the only way to get people to buy more crap was to make sure they had a job. Any job.... Obamas biggest mistake is doing nothing more than Reaganomics and becoming Bushes 3rd term.

Let me put this real simple..... you own a business. You pay taxes. You get a taxbreak that is supposed to in theory mean you will hire more people. But you don't have any customers or even more customers or demand for your products in fact business is slow. Do you take your taxbreak and hire another worker to sit on his ass...... or do you take that money and pocket it? Perhaps you buy a new yacht. That might stimulate demand a little. But perhaps you just save it and do nothing with it. Regardless you would never hire any more people than what you needed for the given demand for your product. You would not stay in business long that way.

Obama is not doing what Reagan or Bush would have done- he's spending more money, claiming that by spending more money and furthering our debt we'll fix our economic woes... wrong. He may start to realize how wrong this plan was, but the reinvestment isn't really working if construction companies are hiring illegal workers and not paying taxes, or the workers send their wages back to Mexico.
In terms of business, the company I work at is family owned, we are comprised of 3 people, we don't have plans to hire anyone new and we have an increasing customer base, and thus if we get a tax break we'll use it to increase our profit by boosting advertising or some other form of growth. We have never hired more people than what we needed given the demand, and guess what, our company has been in business successfully since 1950... so I think we're doing just fine.

[Ranger]

Don't take my word on it:

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...sion-5409.aspx

The UCLA study that many economists site today.

http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roo.../dp/0761501657

While I may not be an economist, Milton Friedman most certainly is and along with many other respectable economists endorse this book.

So, I respect your opinion but cannot agree with you despite how well you might present your case (and I respect a well presented case). I will put my stock behind the Friedmans of the world when it comes to economics before I take the word of someone I don't know.

[nynco]

Now why Keynesian economics or Austrian School (libertarian Hyack people) won't work either. Because of unfettered Free Trade. That blew a hole in our economy and no matter what we do, nothing will get better till be plug that hole. Obama can stimulate the economy all he wants but it won't work. The fundamental basics of the system are broken. Regardless of gov spending or no gov spending, if someone buys a product in the market and that product is made over seas that sends economic activity over seas not back into our economy. We put off that day of reckoning by giving people cheap loans. I made it all seem too good to be true and it was.

Manufacturing is the basis of all wealth creation. If you build nothing then you are just feeding off the left overs of that previous manufacture wealth creation.

Why is the middle class disappearing? Because we now have to compete with people who live in mudhuts. So until you yourself are willing to live in a mudhut, you can never compete with his cost of living. America is sliding to that equilibrium point.

[nynco]

Don't take my word on it:

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...sion-5409.aspx

The UCLA study that many economists site today.

http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roo.../dp/0761501657

While I may not be an economist, Milton Friedman most certainly is and along with many other respectable economists endorse this book.

So, I respect your opinion but cannot agree with you despite how well you might present your case (and I respect a well presented case). I will put my stock behind the Friedmans of the world when it comes to economics before I take the word of someone I don't know.

Freedman is a moron in my opinion. His book the Olive and the Lexus is the best example. He failed to mention that Lexus was built up through trade protection and gov programs that ensured they would grow. Not from freemarket forces alone.

Cut and paste from an article written by Thom Hartmann.

Another great example of this is Toyota's success with their luxury car: Lexus. Toyota has been touted by free traders as a clear example of why free trade works, mostly because of the widely cited example outlined in Thomas Freidman's book The Lexus and the Olive Tree.

But again, at a closer look, the reality is the opposite of what Friedman naively portrays in his book. In fact, Japan subsidized Toyota not only in its development but even after if failed terribly in the American markets in the late 1950's. In addition, early in Toyota's development, Japan kicked out foreign competitors like GM.

Thus, because the Japanese government financed Toyota at a loss (for roughly 20 years), built high tariff and other barriers to competitive imports, and initially subsidized exports, auto manufacturing was able to get a strong foothold and we now think of Japanese exports being synonymous with automobiles.

Obama Drinks Friedman's Kool-Aid

[hollohas]

FDR knew that the only way to get people to buy more crap was to make sure they had a job. Any job.... Obamas biggest mistake is doing nothing more than Reaganomics and becoming Bushes 3rd term.

Let me put this real simple..... you own a business. You pay taxes. You get a taxbreak that is supposed to in theory mean you will hire more people. But you don't have any customers or even more customers or demand for your products in fact business is slow. Do you take your taxbreak and hire another worker to sit on his ass...... or do you take that money and pocket it? Perhaps you buy a new yacht. That might stimulate demand a little. But perhaps you just save it and do nothing with it. Regardless you would never hire any more people than what you needed for the given demand for your product. You would not stay in business long that way.

^This is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" example. The owner can't create a job because he has no customers, he has no customers because they don't have jobs, they don't have jobs because owners can't hire...

So who can hire? Well, the government can! But how you ask?

Decreasing taxes didn't help so maybe increasing them will... Let's see...increased taxes will in theory mean Uncle Sam can create jobs. More jobs mean more people that can buy crap at the owner's shop. How does Uncle Sam make those jobs? Extra tax income in theory means Uncle Sam can now buy 100 new toilets for $50/each for the phase 1 retrofit of government buildings. Requiring hiring 10 new guys to install them and requiring the manufacture hire 5 new employees to make them because the demand is now over their supply capability. Good theory, there are your jobs. But what really happens? Instead Uncle Sam paid $500/each for 10 new toilets and neither the manufacture nor Plumbers.gov needed to hire anyone.

Giving government more money is not the answer. They have never proved to use it wisely.

A business owner buying a yacht is a lot more simulating demand than a $500 government toilet or studying the effects of cow farts on the ozone. I'm not saying we should give tax breaks so business owners can buy boats but I don't think giving that money to Uncle Sam is a great idea either.

Everyone should pay the same percentage income tax whether they make $10/year or $10 billion, no exceptions. What they do with the rest is their business. But no double taxing either...no taxing your savings, girfts, your death...

[patrick0685]

Freedman is a moron in my opinion. His book the Olive and the Lexus is the best example. He failed to mention that Lexus was built up through trade protection and gov programs that ensured they would grow. Not from freemarket forces alone.

Cut and paste from an article written by Thom Hartmann.

Another great example of this is Toyota's success with their luxury car: Lexus. Toyota has been touted by free traders as a clear example of why free trade works, mostly because of the widely cited example outlined in Thomas Freidman's book The Lexus and the Olive Tree.

But again, at a closer look, the reality is the opposite of what Friedman naively portrays in his book. In fact, Japan subsidized Toyota not only in its development but even after if failed terribly in the American markets in the late 1950's. In addition, early in Toyota's development, Japan kicked out foreign competitors like GM.

Thus, because the Japanese government financed Toyota at a loss (for roughly 20 years), built high tariff and other barriers to competitive imports, and initially subsidized exports, auto manufacturing was able to get a strong foothold and we now think of Japanese exports being synonymous with automobiles.

Obama Drinks Friedman's Kool-Aid

I feel that if you insult/demean people it would be best you use their real names

[nynco]

Do you like Red Rocks Amphitheater? How much money do you think that generates for the local economy?

[nynco]

I feel that if you insult/demean people it would be best you use their real names

I can't speel. I admit that for all. I wish I was better at it and it is something I work at everyday. But spelling mistakes still don't change facts. They just allow people to question character rather than argument.

[hollohas]

Now why Keynesian economics or Austrian School (libertarian Hyack people) won't work either. Because of unfettered Free Trade. That blew a hole in all our economics and no matter what we do nothing will get better till be plug that hole. Obama can stimulate the economy all he wants but it won't work. The fundamental basis of the system is broken. Regardless of gov spending or no gov spending if someone buys a product in the market and that product is made over seas that sends economic activity over seas not back into our economy. We put off that day of reckoning by giving people cheap loans. I made it seem too good to be true and it was.

Manufacturing is the basis of all wealth creation. If you build nothing then you are just feeding off the left overs of that previous manufacture wealth creation.

^I agree with this. And this is another example of how .gov does nothing but screw shit up. The stimulus was supposed to help America...so they put in "Buy America" and "Buy American" clauses. Oh, but wait. They also included small print that says most ARRA Stimulus funds can also be spent on product from nations that are part of the FTO. Result, many ARRA funds went overseas.

Your above statement is also slightly contradictory to some of your previous posts. Higher taxes and fees DO drive much manufacturing to other countries...lower taxes is one of few important points companies use to determine where they locate their manufacturing.

[patrick0685]

I can't speel. I admit that for all. I wish I was better at it and it is something I work at everyday. But spelling mistakes still don't change facts. They just allow people to question character rather than argument.

ill agree, spelling doesn't change the fact, however it does diminish the presentation.