I'll leave this little gem here,

[nynco]

^I agree with this. And this is another example of how .gov does nothing but screw shit up. The stimulus was supposed to help America...so they put in "Buy America" and "Buy American" clauses. Oh, but wait. They also included small print that says most ARRA Stimulus funds can also be spent on product from nations that are part of the FTO. Result, many ARRA funds went overseas.

Your above statement is also slightly contradictory to some of your previous posts. Higher taxes and fees DO drive much manufacturing to other countries...lower taxes is one of few important points companies use to determine where they locate their manufacturing.

Ok Hollohas you are almost there. Yes gov. screwed it up. I admit that. But HOW did they screw it up? They took away the gov. regulations called tariffs. So less gov. interference lead to more jobs fleeing to 3rd world nations. So its not that all gov. is bad. Just bad gov. is. Meaning gov. that is bought and paid for by the mega wealthy interests who moved those jobs overseas to make more profits. I agree that the weakening of the "Buy American Clause" was wrong. Now whose idea was that?

As to me being contradictory. It may seem that way. But let me explain. Higher taxes and fees can drive companies to move manufacturing over seas. But that is only permitted because there are no trade barriers left to stop them. At the same time the cost of labor to employ any American is way more than the guy in a mudhut. So its all part of the same problem. When free trade with no rules in permitted with economies that are vastly different they will eventually start to come to some sort of equilibrium. Friedman was correct about that. What he failed to mention was that you would be living in a mudhut too. Congrats you can now compete equally. God bless America....... the American middle class is dead. Screw that...

Ironically once you are living in a mudhut and those same economic interests who own your gov. get another freetrade deal. This time with Cambodia.... they don't even have mud huts there. So..... Equalibrium will mean you lose your mudhut to compete too.

Now........ theoretically we could end up raising the living standards of the mudhut guy up something better. But the middle ground between a mudhut and the American middle class is still decimation for the common American.

Its wrong and only serves a narrow slice of America while destroy the lives of the majority of this nation.




Now......... Do you like Red Rocks? How much money do you think that provided in economic activity over the last 50 years?

[hollohas]

Ok Hollohas you are almost there. Yes gov. screwed it up. I admit that. But HOW did they screw it up? They took away the gov. regulations called tariffs. So less gov. interference lead to more jobs fleeing to 3rd world nations. So its not that all gov. is bad. Just bad gov. is. Meaning gov. that is bought and paid for by the mega wealthy interests who moved those jobs overseas to make more profits. I agree that the weakening of the "Buy American Clause" was wrong. Now whose idea was that?

As to me being contradictory. It may seem that way. But let me explain. Higher taxes and fees can drive companies to move manufacturing over seas. But that is only permitted because there are no trade barriers left to stop them. At the same time the cost of labor to employ any American is way more than the guy in a mudhut. So its all part of the same problem. When free trade with no rules in permitted with economies that are vastly different they will eventually start to come to some sort of equilibrium. Friedman was correct about that. What he failed to mention was that you would be living in a mudhut too. Congrats you can now compete equally. God bless America....... the American middle class is dead. Screw that...

Ironically once you are living in a mudhut and those same economic interests who own your gov. get another freetrade deal. This time with Cambodia.... they don't even have mud huts there. So..... Equalibrium will mean you lose your mudhut to compete too.

Now........ theoretically we could end up raising the living standards of the mudhut guy up something better. But the middle ground between a mudhut and the American middle class is still decimation for the common American.

Its wrong and only serves a narrow slice of America while destroy the lives of the majority of this nation.




Now......... Do you like Red Rocks? How much money do you think that provided in economic activity over the last 50 years?

I don't know anything about Red Rocks.

Now we're starting to agree a little...

I agree that there should be trade barriers but those should be directed at companies outside our country, not American companies. Charge them more to import...fine by me. Government regulations that regulate what other countries do in American is fine by me. I do whole-heartily believe in less government regulation and control of AMERICANS though. We should get special treatment (read: Uncle Sam doesn't bother us) for being American. In my view that's the role of the government, to protect us from the rest of the world at the same time staying out of our business. And that should include making easier and CHEAPER to manufacture here. Both lower taxes for domestic and higher tariffs for foreign manufacture among other things.

If Mr. foreign manufacture of some widget thinks it's unfair that he has to pay a high import fee to sell his widget in America then he should move his manufacturing here. Lower taxes on said American manufacturing would not only help encourage him to move his manufacturing here, it would help encourage others to stay here.

[nynco]

I don't know anything about Red Rocks.

Now we're starting to agree a little...

I agree that there should be trade barriers but those should be directed at companies outside our country, not American companies. Charge them more to import...fine by me. Government regulations that regulate what other countries do in American is fine by me. I do whole-heartily believe in less government regulation and control of AMERICANS though. We should get special treatment (read: Uncle Sam doesn't bother us) for being American. In my view that's the role of the government, to protect us from the rest of the world at the same time staying out of our business. And that should include making easier and CHEAPER to manufacture here. Both lower taxes for domestic and higher tariffs for foreign manufacture among other things.

If Mr. foreign manufacture of some widget thinks it's unfair that he has to pay a high import fee to sell his widget in America then he should move his manufacturing here. Lower taxes on said American manufacturing would not only help encourage him to move his manufacturing here, it would help encourage others to stay here.

Ok we are starting to see eye to eye here. You do know that the system the founding fathers put in place up until the early 1900s was a system where most all gov revenue was derived from import tariffs? If not research and learn, you would find it interesting. I advocate returning to a system where that is again how we base our economy. This has little to do with internal tax structure and more to do with disparities of competing with a 3rd world nation on equal ground. They have the advantage in a way almost akin to Guerrilla Warfare.

Now less gov regulations is not a panacea.. What you are really striving for is balanced gov regulations and fair ones. Because gov regulations keep your drinking water safe. They also keep your car from blowing up when you turn the key. I don't want to live in a society where its a gamble whether any of those things happen. I don't want to live in a society where companies kill at will and only stop when it costs them money. Thats sociopathic. Gov of we the people can decide laws to make those things not possible. That is a good thing too.


Now Red Rocks..........this goes back to FDR. FDR's make work programs created Red Rocks. Not the free market. But it was FDR's investment in the American workers and this nation when we built Red Rocks that later generated more economic activity. I would say a millions of times more than the initial cost to taxpayers. That was manufacturing creating wealth and that wealth creation created more wealth and still does to this day. Gov spending is not always pissing money in a hole. If we chose to use gov spending to build things that create wealth, then that is investing not waste.

But thats evil socialism........ nope its investing in America

[nynco]

In 1927, George Cranmer, Manager of Denver Parks, convinced the City of Denver to purchase the area of Red Rocks from Walker for the price of $54,133. Cranmer convinced the Mayor of Denver, Ben Stapleton, to build on the foundation laid by Walker. By enlisting the help of the federally sponsored Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), and the Work Projects Administration (WPA), labor and materials were provided for the venture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Rocks_Amphitheatre

Thats the evil socialist FDR make work programs........... that built something that created vast amounts of wealth for generations afterward. As I said before FDRs legacy laid the foundations for many good things in America. Only when we weakened his reforms and went back to the failed ideas that lead to the first great depression did things go wrong. But........ the people scream socialism..... really don't understand what socialism is.

[Byte Stryke]

I Like Pie

[flan7211]

I do have to agree with you whole heartedly on the protection arguments you make. This nation was founded, and constitutionally ingrained with protectionism. Alexander Hamilton (brilliant man) knew America couldn't compete with British free trade. Free trade btw was called the English school of economics for quite some time. Hamilton helped create a deep system of tariffs to support American manufacturing. Our nation has a long history of using protection of our industries to compete with the rest of the world. Since the Smoot-Hawley tariff though it seems Americans have shunned the protection that would restore economic prosperity. Smoot-Hawley didn't cause an economic disaster it softened the blow.

We need to ask ourselves a question in this country? When did it become a bad thing to protect America? We have members of both party's clucking around using terms like "free trade" when the only people who use such a term are the ones held at a disadvantage. Do you think China or India uses that term? No way they subsidize their manufacturers, penalize ours, and use currency manipulation to guarantee we have no access to their markets.

I am a Republican and can only ask when will our party stand up for America again? The party of Clay (whig which became Republican), Lincoln, McKinnley, and Eisenhower was a party based on America first. If one of our parties don't stand up soon what will we have? How long can a service economy last? I guarantee most of us whether rich or poor are in a service sector job. We need manufacturing. The only way to fix the debt crisis and put our financial house in order is to export our goods at a greater rate than foreign countries can import theirs. Tax or cut doesn't matter in the long run. If we are not producing we will eventually run out of cash, plain and simple.

[nynco]

Flan7211.... I whole heartedly agree.

If you want to read more about Hamilton's 12 point plan, it is posted here.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/17

Also FDR brought back tariffs and only when Reagan began to dismantle those did things go downhill from there. Since that point we have been feeding off the previous generations productions. Well like a cancer, free trade is finally killing off the host.

[DOC]

I Like Pie

I like 3.14

[Jamnanc]

I also am an isolationist. Raise tariffs some, keep tax rates for investments and profits reasonably low, welfare without work only for widows and orphans, only go to war where there is a clear goal and an advantage to your country in victory, or when you are attacked:maintain a strong military to reduce the likelihood of attack, maintain borders, allow as much "legal immigration as is needed for the labor pool", if you are attempting to stimulate the economy with tax money make sure you use it for solid infrastructure which will increase velocity of goods, services, manufacturing, cut government waste, reduce red tape, maintain fair environmental regulations so we don't destroy the planet, but be reasonable about it so that our manufacturing does have a chance to compete because when we send the work to a third world country all we do is increase the likelihood of environmental damage. (Do you know that we actually import things like cement? Low value, high weight, but many local plants have closed due to restrictive environmental law.)

High tax rates on profits and investment=Less incentive to take risk of starting/expanding businesses, more incentive to move your investment overseas, offshore.

Do you have an employer? I work for a small business and I am glad that my employer makes a profit. When the corporation profits, they are able to pay me more and I can buy more stuff which in turn allows some other business to make a profit. The margins for most businesses are so small right now that even a small increase in the tax rate will cause a rise in price or a lack of profit. The owner will have no motivation to be in business and I won't have a job if there isn't a promise of profit. Profit is not a dirty word for the owner, worker, or consumer. Our country was founded by a bunch of people seeking religious freedom as well as individuals seeking profit underwritten by factors in England who loaned them money gambling on the profits to be made by (exploiting) the new world.

At the same time, it seems to me that corporations do need to be held in check, because they do not have a conscience. We also need to fear rule by the corporations as it seems that we are on a path where government is representing corporations better than it does individual Americans.

I am now rambling...

Good day,

[sniper7]

the data about unemployment explains it all. If obama wanted to do the right thing right now he would take the massive cuts the true fiscal conservatives are proposing and stop this downward spiral.