Train!

[mcantar18c]

The owner of the BBQ across the street had a clear shot of him walking into the IHOP after he killed the lady motorcycle rider but didnt take it, citing "Tt was a pistol against an AK, what was I going to do?"

If you don't train, you wont trust yourself. And if you don't trust yourself, you won't be able to do what needs to be done. Unfortunately, all too often Joe Carry goes out and gets his CCW permit, buys whatever gun the guys on his gun forum are pushing for, and thinks he's prepared to face the evils that exist in this world because he can put decent groupings on paper at a square range.

Carrying a gun doesn't make you dangerous (good dangerous) any more than owning a welder makes you a fabricator. You need not only the tools, but the knowledge and practice to put those tools to use in the most effective and most efficient way.

The above quote was taken from an article about the recent shooting at the IHOP in Nevada.
In this case, the shot was at most 65 yards (Google Earth measure from door to door of his BBQ joint to the IHOP). While it may not be an easy point-and-shoot, 65 yards with a carry pistol is by no means difficult. I can consistently shoot MOH at 100m (ok, technically 97m) with my carry weapon, and there is no excuse for not being able to do so with yours.
The BBQ joint owner went outside when he heard the first gunshot, when the whackjob in need (of some ventilation) shot a woman on a Harley. The gunman was still outside walking towards the building, and had no knowledge of the BBQ guy's existence. If the BBQ guy wasn't comfortable shooting then and there, he had time to take a knee or otherwise steady himself for the shot without compromising himself.
Also, there was a parking lot in between the BBQ joint owner and the whackjob. A parking lot offers a good amount of visual cover (cars) and ballistic cover (engine blocks, curbs, etc.) to conceal and protect you while moving and/or taking fire. Again, the gunman was still outside at this point. It takes what, 4 seconds to cover 50m? Could have just as easily closed distance to between him and the gunman till he was at a point where he was comfortable to take the shot.
The BBQ joint owner now carries the burden of knowing he could have prevented 4 murders and chose not to because he didn't trust his abilities. Not only did his lack of training lead to a lack of confidence in taking a not-so-difficult shot, but also to an inability to respond to the situation (solving the perceived problem of not having a shot by closing distance or taking a steady shooting position).
This was a proactive fight. The BBW guy had the initiative. He had the element of surprise, and the luxury of being outside the focus of the gunman where he could choose how to respond on his own terms. There is absolutely no reason that he couldn't have done so.
Also, the "he has a better weapon, I'm screwed" mentality is in play here. It shouldn't matter if he's walking around with an AK and you have a 9mm. Practice refines skill, training builds confidence, and if you're proficient and confident in your abilities then it shouldn't matter if you're facing a 240B with a 10/22. If you aren't proficient and confident in your abilities, train until you are... then train some more.

Can you ring steel at 100m with your carry weapon(s)?
Do you know how to shoot effectively while moving at full speed?
Have you trained to get off the X while counterattacking and not trip over yourself?
Can you make effective use of cover if needed?
Do you have the mindset necessary to do what needs to be done?
Are you physically capable of doing these things? (Physical fitness, staying in shape, is as important a part of "maintaining your equipment" as cleaning your gun).
If not, there's a simple solution: TRAIN!

[trlcavscout]

I agree. I would have at least met him half way at a dead run before shooting if necesary. Better to try and fail then to explain your excuses to the media afterwards? Which direction you run when the shooting starts tells your whole story.

[Irving]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.
At that distance I'll just keep out of the line of fire. I don't carry so I can protect people who won't protect themselves.

[Great-Kazoo]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.

And i agree with you disagreeing. A miss from you is a potential homicide charge. I have a high confidence level of my shooting capabilities, that still does not under stress at 65 yards give me a clean shot. Getting closer if possible might change that scenario, again a pistol facing a rifle is 50/50 at best.

[mcantar18c]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

[BigMat]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun.

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

[trlcavscout]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

[Atrain1]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with you on this one, if you dont know how to use your gun you could be better off not to carry it, like you said 65 yards is not that difficult of a shot but to some one who has not trained with there gun it could be. I can kind of see it from both sides of the fence the guy was probably very scared seeing the AK that can be a very scary gun, I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of one, also does anyone know what the BBQ owner was carrying, a 65 yard shot with my P3AT would be a hard shot, On the same note I would not want to have 4 murdered people that I could have stopped, I know the feeling I could have stopped my sister from taking her own life if I was not tired from working and went over to her house when she called me, I told her I would be there after I had got some rest, that night she overdosed on pills, she had tried it numerous times in the past so I would have seen the signs.

[Great-Kazoo]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.
Arm chair quarterbacking doesn't play in the real world.
Example: Columbine, had numerous LE depts on site, unfortunately the Com between depts was fuked. However with unknown assailants NOT ONE LE entered the building to stop the threat.
I am at the dry cleaners 2 doors down from the IHOP and i hear gunfire. I see #1 assailant with a rifle. All of a sudden Shooter #2 makes an appearance from a building same side of the street as me.
Do I engage Shooter 1 or 2, Is shooter 1, even with rifle going after shooter #2's accomplice or shooter 2 accomplice of 1??? Is shooter 2 an LE without ID as happened in NY recently and was shot by another LE?? Do i draw and engage, what happens if an off duty LE was on site and see's me running towards IHOP? More than likely he would order me to halt or shoot since he also does not want to draw fire.
I am also one who runs towards the train wreck as i have to live with myself and sleep at night. UNLESS i have a clear picture of what is going on engaging would be a call only made at that time. YMMV.

[DOC]

I feel like a trooper in the field. I have no carry pistol to speak of just an AR and shit ton of AK around me. And I can stop any man sized target at that range with the first shot making the following 3 or 4 just gravy for the guy until he hits the ground.

But I would pause before shooting. I just hope he doesn't shoot me before I get him. It takes a lot more that I want to write right now. My hands hurt from putting a fence up and I don't want to type.

Let me just say that I hope that anyone of you out there that carry have the brass balls to save my ass one day if a democrat psycho trys to shoot up a buffet or hummer dealership because they see it as bad.