Train!

[Atrain1]

I thought LEOs ARE civilians?

Law Enforcement Officer LEO, I am sure you knew that and are just messing around, but hey you never know.

[mcantar18c]

Sorry grammar is not me best subject. All I am saying is how many of us would have really engaged a man with a AK47 with a carry pistol or taken a shot at him 65 yards away while moving. I know I would not have unless I had to, I honestly do not know what I would do if I personally saw him kill someone I would have to be in that situation, and I have been shot at a few times. There is just to much risk the guy had, if he would have made one mistake he would have been done either by the BG or our legal system. My AK47 has 40 rd mags my carry gun depending on which one Revolver or semi 7 and 6 rds you dont have to much room for mistake there. Just try and put yourself in this guys place and ask yourself if you would have really done something. I dont buy that there are perfectly sane people with nothing wrong upstairs that can kill a man and not lose any sleep, I can do it if it needs to be done and I know that for a fact but I am sure going to lose sleep and never forget about it. Psychopaths wont lose any sleep and would most likely get off on it.

Dabble around in psychology a bit. You'll be shocked at everything you don't know that you don't know.

I think as a civilian he made the right move. An off duty LEO in the same situation may have been a different story, that being said we are trained not to go into an active shooter situation without at minimum 2 other LEOs. So, I have no idea what I would have done. I garonte that if I had my summer carry (LCP) I would not engage from that range or any range unless directly threatened, and I certainly would not have told the press who I was or that I was armed.

I don't see how the response should be any different between a man in a t-shirt and a man in a blue uniform. Its the mindset of the individual that makes a difference, not the profession.

I thought LEOs ARE civilians?

They are... unless you're a LEO.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

I don't see how the response should be any different between a man in a t-shirt and a man in a blue uniform. Its the mindset of the individual that makes a difference, not the profession..

I couldnt agree more. Just because some people wear a badge doesnt mean they are emotionless robots.

I have PERSONALLY seen LEOs FREEZE when they should be drawing a Taser or weapon.

Having a badge doesnt mean anything except they have authority.

This is a subject I get touchy on because people think they (LEOs) have some sort of superior firearms abilities or have a higher intelligence quotient due to an academy they attended or some testing/training, when often that is completely OPPOSITE of those assumptions

Cops dont start out as cops...they start out as people just like everyone else

[Byte Stryke]

I couldnt agree more. Just because some people wear a badge doesnt mean they are emotionless robots.

I have PERSONALLY seen LEOs FREEZE when they should be drawing a Taser or weapon.

Having a badge doesnt mean anything except they have authority.

This is a subject I get touchy on because people think they (LEOs) have some sort of superior firearms abilities or have a higher intelligence quotient due to an academy they attended or some testing/training, when often that is completely OPPOSITE of those assumptions

Cops dont start out as cops...they start out as people just like everyone else

There are Veterans, as well as "Civilians" I would rather have on my 6 than a street cop from surburb-ville-ranch.
Nothing against Cops, but I would rather have a marine that served in Khafji 20 years ago than a patrol officer that shoots a speed gun all day.

[DD977GM2]

Here is my big question for those who have responded,

How many real life firefights have you been in and did you stick to your training 100% during the engagement?

I know I didnt the first timme hadji tried to get me, then about 15-20 sec later as I was behind cover, my training kicked in and Im here today.

[DANGERTASTIC!]

Sure. I can agree with that also.

Just as it can be a marine that has never seen combat as a cop that is terrified for confrontation....just because someone is a civvie doesnt mean they lack in a particular skill or have any less courage for a particular situation

[mcantar18c]

Here is my big question for those who have responded,

How many real life firefights have you been in and did you stick to your training 100% during the engagement?

I know I didnt the first timme hadji tried to get me, then about 15-20 sec later as I was behind cover, my training kicked in and Im here today.

To answer your questions:
Have I ever been in a firefight?
No.
Have I reverted to my training 100% during encounters?
Not 100%. Parts, yes, but not all. But then, I don't see the actual "training moves" as the reason we train. The confidence in yourself and your abilities that training builds is what's important, and IMO its having that confidence that helps you the most.

So, no firefights. However I have been shot at, and after the initial "What the f*ck was that? Kind of sounded like a round whizzing by.... Is this really happening? Oh shit!" I was able to think clearly and do what I had to do (got the hell out of there, using cover and concealment... yes I know the difference... no training in doing so at the time, just seemed like the logical thing to do).
I've been in fights where weapons were drawn on me and handled it well. One of those times was in a brawl at my old business... he had a weapon, a broken bottle in his hand, and I reacted. I elbowed him hard in the trachea, which in theory would have crushed it and cut off the airway, and he went down. It was a good 20 min before the cops and ambulances arrived. Don't know what happened to him, but I don't imagine the odds were in his favor. I don't think he lived, and I have no remorse about this... nor do I see why I should.
I've also drawn weapons in encounters, never initiated though (reactive vs. proactive). 3 times with a gun, 4 with a knife. All but one the presence of a weapon with the clear intent to use it and not showing them fear was enough for them to back down without going further. That one time was with a knife, though I didn't have any training with a blade at the time and don't think I did any unfixable damage. I slashed, he ran away (its mostly stabs that kill, which I didn't know at the time). All the times I've drawn I was strangely calm, my thoughts were clear, and I was sure of my intentions.

This is why I say mindset is the most important thing. Here's how I see it:
If I draw a weapon, I'm going to kill you. If I wasn't going to kill you, I wouldn't have drawn. By drawing my weapon, you're already dead... I've already "killed" you in my mind, all that's left is to go through the motions physically. Having "done it" mentally, the physical part becomes easy. The other part of that is if I saw any other way to stop the situation I wouldn't have drawn, therefore using that weapon is the only way out, and thus I am justified in using it.
If I had the mindset of "Oh shit I just drew a weapon. I don't want to kill this man. Oh crap I may have to kill this man. Can I do it? How will I live with myself? blah blah blah" I don't think I would be able to handle situations the way I have.
Mindset is everything.

[DD977GM2]

To answer your questions: [sic]

From your post......your a scrapper at heart, mindset of self preservation(who doesnt have some self preservation)....or your one of the few who are not like the rest of us. I was trained decently with the Navy and also grew up scrapping and learned some fighting techniques from my Dad(former Marine Vietnam).

Im a damn good shot with my 1911 at 127 yards and can hit steal around 80% of the time(STEAL DOESNT SHOOT BACK). From 9mm, 40S&W, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 44 mag and 41 mag that I have shot at my steel target at 127 yards I have found quiet a few rounds that didnt impact the target that were way low still intact well before the target. So still had plenty of velocity yet no real damage to the bullet itself.

Mcantar, based on your experience you stated, you will refute this possibly(sorry late to reading this thread), if you engaged from the shop across the street the POS in Nevada at 65 yards roughly you will basically hurt the shooter significantly. IF, big if IMHO, you hit him in a decent enough location to cause him to drop his weapon etc etc. Logic and even veteran folks who have faced real combat in military,LEO or civilian life (combat in this instance is actual events of being fired upon and returning fire in any capacity and you lived) with some of the best of training will not hit a vital enough area to drastically turn the tides of the fight. The gunman will most likely, again IMHO, turn towards the threat and engage you and like others have said...a car is a POS for cover from rounds, especially 7.62x39.

I havnt read the entire account of that day and how the fucker moved, but my guess is he wasnt a terrible shot at the worst. Im gonna call BS about the 100m, yes One Hundred meters, hitting MOH or whatever you want to call it. How fast is a 45 round going at 100m? Its only getting slower every foot it travels from the barrel right??? If its a 9mm round, then well good luck with that. I have first hand experience with CQB with a POS M9 and the effects it DOESNT perform oon targets. As per you, its still 100m, right? Or will this change magically to 100 ft.

In all honestly, Im not buying your response to my question. You sound like all the damn roughnecks I encounter who want to fight a guy who hasnt roughnecked(I have worked as hard in other jobs for longer periods of time then most out here already), making more $$ then them and still working in the oilfield in what the roughnecks consider a prestigious position.

Not trying to be a dick, but I kinda tell it like it is. At least my perspective.

[Ronin13]

There are Veterans, as well as "Civilians" I would rather have on my 6 than a street cop from surburb-ville-ranch.
Nothing against Cops, but I would rather have a marine that served in Khafji 20 years ago than a patrol officer that shoots a speed gun all day.

+1
I've never been in an active combat situation where I've fired my weapon at a human- however, as a caveat, I have been in a "passive" combat situation where I've trained my weapon on a living person and went through several mental steps to prepare myself for what might happen (IE: that pink mist we all hear about). About 20min later I soon realized I was fully ready to take a life and move on without hesitation or a second thought, had I become so callous? Then realized what unforgettable image would be burned into my mind if/when I zippered a guy with 10-15 rounds of 7.62 from an M240B mounted machine gun... You tell me a cop that can take on that mental burden and I'll pick them to be on my team, otherwise I'll take the guy that spends his weekends punching paper and doing protective drills so his ass stays alive in the SHTF scenario we all pray never happens but prepare for constantly. It's not just about training, but mental preparation. When you're prone, in the rain, for hours on end screaming "KILL!" with 14 other guys winking at a silhouette at 150M while holding an M-16 and people who have seen combat telling you to "Shoot that motherfucker!" you kinda have a change of mental abilities and processes that really do die hard.

[Mick-Boy]

So..... Who's down to take the pepsi challenge? I'll bring the steel and a laser range finder.