Train!

[Mick-Boy]

The guy in the IHOP shooting wasn't targeting anyone specifically, he was going for body count (as is the norm for these "active shooter" scenarios). If he had a select fire weapon, why wouldn't he just spray at the folks in IHOP? As has been pointed out by other folks here, these guys get most of their firearms experience from video games, its not like he's going to put a short burst into target A and then repeat with target B when he can go full auto.
So no, I wasn't joking.

A full auto weapon isn't a fire hose and there's always more air than meat. Someone who "just sprays at folks" is much more likely to have a lower body count than a higher.

Get the job done of stopping the threat. IMO if a carry gun isn't capable of effectively stopping a threat behind cover (shooting through a car door and then into the attacker, for example), then it isn't suitable to carry. No, a 9mm isn't too small for this... a .25ACP is.

We went through this in the 9mm vs. 45 thread but I'll say it again here. Pistols suck as fight stoppers. Nothing that is man portable can stop a threat guaranteed.

Shooting a threat behind cover is a job for a rifle and a good barrier blind projectile.

For that matter, shooting a threat at 65M is a job for a rifle too.

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

[mcantar18c]

A full auto weapon isn't a fire hose and there's always more air than meat. Someone who "just sprays at folks" is much more likely to have a lower body count than a higher.

As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?

We went through this in the 9mm vs. 45 thread but I'll say it again here. Pistols suck as fight stoppers. Nothing that is man portable can stop a threat guaranteed.

Shooting a threat behind cover is a job for a rifle and a good barrier blind projectile.

For that matter, shooting a threat at 65M is a job for a rifle too.

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.

[cstone]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there!

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source.

[Atrain1]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there!

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source.

I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

[Irving]

Never believe anything the public says.

I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?

[mcantar18c]

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

So we can't criticize someone's actions unless we were right there next to them?
Right, got it.

Never believe anything the public says.

Amen.

I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

He also shot (and I believe killed) an older woman on a motorcycle out front. Doesn't really seem like a threat... which means targets of opportunity/body count.
As for the Guard boys, I'd imagine they either just happened to be at the closest table, or maybe they stood out the most because they were in uniform, or both, or something... but from what I can tell I don't think they were purposely targeted.

What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?

There was a shooting in... Ohio?... just a couple months ago where a CCWer shot one of two thugs in the leg that were trying to pull him out of his car. Had he not had the door open, he would have been shooting through it.

I recently read about a case where a police officer was being shot at by a man using a door frame as cover... cop shot through the wall and dropped him.

Woman in Oklahoma a few weeks ago shot through her patio door at an armed man trying to break in while on the phone with a 911 operator.


Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey.
Perfect example of this is a well known incident (in the law enforcement community)... don't remember the officer's name, believe it was in LA. She got out of her car, in her driveway at her house, and was shot in the chest with a .357mag by some gangbanger who had followed her home. Bullet penetrated her heart and blew a tennis ball sized hole in her back. She got up and chased and gunned the guy down, called 911, and after surgery she survived and is still a cop in LA.

[Irving]

I saw the video of the Ohio one. They weren't trying to pull him out.

Cop one doesn't count. A non-cop would just disengage.

Lady shot early.

If there is room for cover, seems like 9 times out of 10, there is room to disengage.

[Great-Kazoo]

[QUOTE=mcantar18c;426634
Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey..[/QUOTE]

WHAT
As a CCW holder, you only use deadly force, if you are in defense of a person CRS 18-1-704,
18-1-705 deals with defense of premises
You do not "bring the fight to them" you either engage until the threat is stopped (Fight) or get the hell out of there (Flight)
That quote alone, if you ever actually had to use deadly force just gave the prosecuting attorney enough ammo to get you an easy 3-5

You may be able to bring the fight to them under 18-1-707: use of physical force in making an arrest, or in preventing an escape.
This CRS pertains primarily to LE until you get the the subsections where an LE ask for assistance

Stop the Threat or get the hell out of there. Anything else and you facing a grand jury at the least.
You must be in your teens or 20's reading some of the shit you either believe in or type hyping your macho status. If you're older than that keep you gun at home and take up a job as a school crossing guard, part time.
You ideologue is going to get anyone who listen's to you killed, sooner or later.

Although i think (key word) after you attend Gabe's class you might be one step future away from reality, OR hopefully, come back to the real world.
i would also suggest you have a real good attorney on retainer.

When i was younger i thought the same way, a lot of $K spent here and there kept me from becoming a long time resident of the gray bar hotel. Going from self defense to ADW happens that quickly, as you never know what the witness' "thought" they saw or say after some leading.

[cstone]

I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

Everything I've read in the return on the warrants served on the minivan, at his brother's house and the house he lived in with his parents has been vague as to details on weapons, shotgun, bb gun, AK47 magazines. The only semi-detailed information I saw was a 9mm Glock pistol and ammunition.

This is one of the better articles I've found, and the Nevada Appeal has been covering the story as the Sheriff's Department has released information:

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/...ntprofile=1058

There is also a link to some surveillance video from the Local's BBQ restaurant on the Nevada Appeal's web site.

[Mick-Boy]

As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?

Do you know it was densely packed? Do you know that the patrons were close together?

I'll say it again, there's always more air than meat. Use of a full auto selector in a fight is for belt fed weapons or amateurs.

This theory you seem to have about full auto highlights your lack of real experience.

I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.

Whether we agreed there or not, in this thread you've criticized both the nutcase with the AK and the small business owner because you seem to think you would have done it better if you were in their shoes.... Here's the rub. You weren't. So you really don't know you just think (or fantasize).

You think you'd take a high percentage shot at 65yds with your carry pistol? Well cool. Rock on with your bad self. Sharp shooting a man because he didn't? Very, very weak.

Your posts in this thread speak volumes about your ignorance and hubris. That's a very dangerous combination in the real world.

Have a great day.