Train!

[mcantar18c]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

[BigMat]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun.

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

[trlcavscout]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

[68Charger]

This thinking gets you shot.

Agreed- at least shot AT, but:

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol.

This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.

[mcantar18c]

I disagree, I think his not shooting was a good call-

A.) Not going to Monday morning quarterback on a shooting- that is nonsense, its heat of combat, and under stress everyone responds differently, regardless of training. Some freeze, some act, I don't care how much training you've had, all it does it help you not screw up if you are and actor. I have seen people go that suprised me and people that froze up that talked all day about how awesome they were, no way to know until it happens. And frankly, I won't hold it against either, good men in both groups, you just hope some quit the next day, and they usually do.

While I agree about armchairing it being useless, the fact is that he was in a perfect position to do something and made a conscious decision not to. That's not something I can support or give him an "its ok, I understand, nobody blames you" for.
While there's no way to know how you will respond in a high stress situation unless you've had the experience, you CAN stack the odds in your favor by having the right mindset.

B.) maybe you can make that shot all day against steal, HE WASNT SHOOTING STEAL! That was a very long shot for a pistol on a two way range, under stress, against a well armed opponent. Ringing steal is one thing. Dropping an armed guy at range, under stress, with one shot, and NOT MISSING-

Its all about training. Shooting steel is one thing... shooting steel while sprinting, taking cover, from behind cover, through cover, etc. is another.
How armed your opponent is has nothing to do with it. Its the conditions of the situation... is he even aware of your existence, who has the initiative, etc... that matter.
And nobody said anything about only taking one shot...

my reasons-
His backstop- people in IHOP, if he kills one, that's probably on him, at least civilly and emotionally
shooters backstop- he didn't care

Was his backstop a glass storefront? Or was it a brick wall on the side of the building? If it was glass, why couldn't he move to a position where he could take a safe shot by closing distance or changing his position relative to the target to where he has a safe backstop?

His weapon - a pistol by no means puts a person down with one shot every time, I worked on an ambulance long enough to know, no pistol makes a promise, NONE. -he also had 8 shots, maybe 15
Shooters Weapon- well within its functional range with plenty more firepower to allow for misses.

I can't think of any situation where when using a pistol you should stop after one shot. Shoot them to the ground.

His situation- alone, barely armed, surround by customers with no cover
Shooters situation- UNKNOWN at the time. alone, turns out, did he know that-nope, he could have had a driver, there could have been 5 more guys in the IHOP, could have had a bomb under his vest. He had no way of knowing these things.

That wouldn't stop me from trying. Only changes how you go about it. Possibly more than one gunman? Take cover before you shoot.

His concern- Himself, his kids and wife to feed his customers.
Shooters concern- killing people

What are the shooter's intentions? Is he targeting IHOP or just moving around shooting things? Could he decide to come have a taste of BBQ where me and my customers are? No reason to sit and wait to find out, he's already identified himself as a significant threat and needs to be taken down, and I'm in a good position to do so.

His cover- Cars=shitty cover. Shoot one sometime, they are shitty cover, Have you seen an engine block in a civic TINY. Also running across open ground AT a guy with an AK=NOT SMART

Cars provide shitty cover, but good concealment. In a parking lot full of cars, you can move around under concealment. I doubt there was nothing bigger than a Civic in that lot... this is America, and we love our trucks/SUVs.

He made a good call, could he have stopped it, maybe, sure, but would he end up in a body bag- odds are good. Look at the Texas courthouse situation, the civi-CCW was well trained and armed with a 45 at close range inside, shooter had an AK and his back was turned. The civilian ended up in a body bag after putting two in a shooters chest, from close range! (shooter had body armor in Texas, the CCW in Carson had no idea this shooter did not)

This goes back to training. An "active shooter" may very well have some form of armor on... so target areas where you know he doesn't. The hip area is a large enough target, will cause significant blood loss and generally immobilize them. Train to be capable of doing what needs to be done, and also to be able to learn from past situations. Learn everything you can to help you properly assess and act when you need to.

I carry a gun for me and mine, if I can help someone else so be it, but I am not fighting a Bradley with a knife. Train all you want this was not a fight he was going to win 8 times out of 10. He was just waiting for a body bag if he pulled that trigger, along with a few of his customers probably. I blame him in no way, the safety of those who are inside belongs to the shooter first and themselves. They chose not to carry a firearm for self defense, why would he change that choice for them. If he went down, I'll be the people he saved wouldn't have stepped up to feed his wife and kids, that's on him.


I don't mean to be a jerk, but judging this guy isn't fair. And if I saw this shooting in his situation, I would de-ass the area, pronto.

Can I ring steel at 100yrds with my carry piece? I don't know, never tried- have been taught self-defense distance is much closer- but this would not have been self-defense, would have been defense of others.
may require a change of CCW to be able to- I've been looking at .357sig lately (not required for that distance, but it wouldn't hurt if I'm changing CCW gun anyway)

Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

[Atrain1]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with you on this one, if you dont know how to use your gun you could be better off not to carry it, like you said 65 yards is not that difficult of a shot but to some one who has not trained with there gun it could be. I can kind of see it from both sides of the fence the guy was probably very scared seeing the AK that can be a very scary gun, I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of one, also does anyone know what the BBQ owner was carrying, a 65 yard shot with my P3AT would be a hard shot, On the same note I would not want to have 4 murdered people that I could have stopped, I know the feeling I could have stopped my sister from taking her own life if I was not tired from working and went over to her house when she called me, I told her I would be there after I had got some rest, that night she overdosed on pills, she had tried it numerous times in the past so I would have seen the signs.

[Great-Kazoo]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.
Arm chair quarterbacking doesn't play in the real world.
Example: Columbine, had numerous LE depts on site, unfortunately the Com between depts was fuked. However with unknown assailants NOT ONE LE entered the building to stop the threat.
I am at the dry cleaners 2 doors down from the IHOP and i hear gunfire. I see #1 assailant with a rifle. All of a sudden Shooter #2 makes an appearance from a building same side of the street as me.
Do I engage Shooter 1 or 2, Is shooter 1, even with rifle going after shooter #2's accomplice or shooter 2 accomplice of 1??? Is shooter 2 an LE without ID as happened in NY recently and was shot by another LE?? Do i draw and engage, what happens if an off duty LE was on site and see's me running towards IHOP? More than likely he would order me to halt or shoot since he also does not want to draw fire.
I am also one who runs towards the train wreck as i have to live with myself and sleep at night. UNLESS i have a clear picture of what is going on engaging would be a call only made at that time. YMMV.

[68Charger]

Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...

[mcantar18c]

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

ALL handguns suck. Period. This is why you SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND.
I've never competed in any kind of gun game. My guns are for killing things, and that is what I train for... whether its hunting 4 legged creatures or defending myself, and others in certain situations, from 2 legged ones.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

Agreed- at least shot AT, but:


This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.

Its entirely possible that when faced with opposition this particular individual would have just given up, let it happen, or turned his gun on himself. However that's no something you can count on.

You bring up an excellent point though... BBQ guy was there many days a week for a significant length of time. I've been working at my job for only a few weeks, but I've already got the building and surrounding area scouted out... lines of approach from various places, cover, etc... and ran through countless situations in my mind. The BBQ guy should have done the same, if he was serious about carrying that weapon, and that would most certainly have increased his chances for success.

[Zundfolge]

hindsight is 20/20 ... I'm sure the BBQ shop owner is going to relive that day every day for the rest of his life and second guess his actions that day.

Maybe he wouldn't have been able to pull a kill shot from that distance, but maybe a little suppressive fire would have made the shooter drop his AK and flee ... I don't envy that man and I believe I would have opened fire myself (and everything I learn after the fact about the shooter reinforces that decision ... but again, read the first 3 words of this post), but I'm not going to judge him for his actions (or inactions).

In retrospect BBQ guy's BIGGEST mistake was admitting his inaction to the media (on several news sites libtard schmucks in the comments sections used his inaction to paint all of us CCWers as Walter Mitty wannabes with 3" penises who carry because we live in a fantasy world where if the lighting and camera angles are just right we can be Bruce Willis too).