Train!

[mcantar18c]

I disagree, I think his not shooting was a good call-

A.) Not going to Monday morning quarterback on a shooting- that is nonsense, its heat of combat, and under stress everyone responds differently, regardless of training. Some freeze, some act, I don't care how much training you've had, all it does it help you not screw up if you are and actor. I have seen people go that suprised me and people that froze up that talked all day about how awesome they were, no way to know until it happens. And frankly, I won't hold it against either, good men in both groups, you just hope some quit the next day, and they usually do.

While I agree about armchairing it being useless, the fact is that he was in a perfect position to do something and made a conscious decision not to. That's not something I can support or give him an "its ok, I understand, nobody blames you" for.
While there's no way to know how you will respond in a high stress situation unless you've had the experience, you CAN stack the odds in your favor by having the right mindset.

B.) maybe you can make that shot all day against steal, HE WASNT SHOOTING STEAL! That was a very long shot for a pistol on a two way range, under stress, against a well armed opponent. Ringing steal is one thing. Dropping an armed guy at range, under stress, with one shot, and NOT MISSING-

Its all about training. Shooting steel is one thing... shooting steel while sprinting, taking cover, from behind cover, through cover, etc. is another.
How armed your opponent is has nothing to do with it. Its the conditions of the situation... is he even aware of your existence, who has the initiative, etc... that matter.
And nobody said anything about only taking one shot...

my reasons-
His backstop- people in IHOP, if he kills one, that's probably on him, at least civilly and emotionally
shooters backstop- he didn't care

Was his backstop a glass storefront? Or was it a brick wall on the side of the building? If it was glass, why couldn't he move to a position where he could take a safe shot by closing distance or changing his position relative to the target to where he has a safe backstop?

His weapon - a pistol by no means puts a person down with one shot every time, I worked on an ambulance long enough to know, no pistol makes a promise, NONE. -he also had 8 shots, maybe 15
Shooters Weapon- well within its functional range with plenty more firepower to allow for misses.

I can't think of any situation where when using a pistol you should stop after one shot. Shoot them to the ground.

His situation- alone, barely armed, surround by customers with no cover
Shooters situation- UNKNOWN at the time. alone, turns out, did he know that-nope, he could have had a driver, there could have been 5 more guys in the IHOP, could have had a bomb under his vest. He had no way of knowing these things.

That wouldn't stop me from trying. Only changes how you go about it. Possibly more than one gunman? Take cover before you shoot.

His concern- Himself, his kids and wife to feed his customers.
Shooters concern- killing people

What are the shooter's intentions? Is he targeting IHOP or just moving around shooting things? Could he decide to come have a taste of BBQ where me and my customers are? No reason to sit and wait to find out, he's already identified himself as a significant threat and needs to be taken down, and I'm in a good position to do so.

His cover- Cars=shitty cover. Shoot one sometime, they are shitty cover, Have you seen an engine block in a civic TINY. Also running across open ground AT a guy with an AK=NOT SMART

Cars provide shitty cover, but good concealment. In a parking lot full of cars, you can move around under concealment. I doubt there was nothing bigger than a Civic in that lot... this is America, and we love our trucks/SUVs.

He made a good call, could he have stopped it, maybe, sure, but would he end up in a body bag- odds are good. Look at the Texas courthouse situation, the civi-CCW was well trained and armed with a 45 at close range inside, shooter had an AK and his back was turned. The civilian ended up in a body bag after putting two in a shooters chest, from close range! (shooter had body armor in Texas, the CCW in Carson had no idea this shooter did not)

This goes back to training. An "active shooter" may very well have some form of armor on... so target areas where you know he doesn't. The hip area is a large enough target, will cause significant blood loss and generally immobilize them. Train to be capable of doing what needs to be done, and also to be able to learn from past situations. Learn everything you can to help you properly assess and act when you need to.

I carry a gun for me and mine, if I can help someone else so be it, but I am not fighting a Bradley with a knife. Train all you want this was not a fight he was going to win 8 times out of 10. He was just waiting for a body bag if he pulled that trigger, along with a few of his customers probably. I blame him in no way, the safety of those who are inside belongs to the shooter first and themselves. They chose not to carry a firearm for self defense, why would he change that choice for them. If he went down, I'll be the people he saved wouldn't have stepped up to feed his wife and kids, that's on him.


I don't mean to be a jerk, but judging this guy isn't fair. And if I saw this shooting in his situation, I would de-ass the area, pronto.

Can I ring steel at 100yrds with my carry piece? I don't know, never tried- have been taught self-defense distance is much closer- but this would not have been self-defense, would have been defense of others.
may require a change of CCW to be able to- I've been looking at .357sig lately (not required for that distance, but it wouldn't hurt if I'm changing CCW gun anyway)

Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

[68Charger]

Don't just stand while ringing steel. Move around, sprint to cover, close distance while shooting.
If you want to file it under self defense... a shooter indiscriminately targeting people may indiscriminately target you.

I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...

[mcantar18c]

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.

FOF training is something that anybody that carries a weapon should do, IMO.

I didn't intend to put defense of others as less important- I may have come across that way, but if I had a chance & means to defend other's lives (not just my family, but strangers), and did nothing, I'd feel like their lives were on my conscience.

good discussion, I've got to go now, tho...

It IS less important. You and yours are the #1 priority. But, if you're in a position to help someone, possibly save them from being killed by some random crazy person while enjoying breakfast at IHOP, I see no reason not to do so. I certainly would have trouble sleeping at night knowing I did nothing, and knowing the results of my inaction.

[BigMat]

...

I disagree with most of what you said, so I saved some space instead of going line by line.

No training ever, fully prepares a person for the big show, I don't care how good it is.

You can run and jump and shoot under stress all you want, NO ONE has ever become a combat veteran by volume of training alone. And I have seen people train their asses off, and then fall flat the first time its time to go. Mind set is serious, but from my experience its something you have, not something you can get, and the only way to know, is to find out by being there. For example, I worked with a guy once, trained for nearly a year in medicine, took a combat medic class. We drive up to our first MVA together, he sees a fair bit of blood, bam, I've got two patients because cap't training just took a nose dive/ out cold. It was awesome! He quit the next day.


The reason I said one shot, is after the first report reaches his ears, unless the bullet passes between them first, he's shooting back, and all advantage you had is gone.

As to hip shots due to armor, I've seen one before, it caused neither tremendous blood loss or immobilization, it could, but not always. Again, pistols can't make promises.

Why didn't he move, no idea, I wasn't there. There could have been one harley between him and the IHOP. and concealment doesn't stop bullets, by definition, especially 30/60/90/120 of them. Sure trucks are big, but they are mostly volume that bullets can pass cleanly through.

As to taking him down to defend your customers, I think he was in a good postion to defend them as well, that's why he was best to keep his butt alive, hidden and parked.


I know I would sleep well every night of my life, (and I have vested my life's work to saving other people, and I have hung by butt out there a time or two to prove it) because what happened in that shooting was the shooters doing, and the defense of me and mine falls to me and mine, not to some guy in a BBQ joint across the lot. The people in IHOP didn't carry where legal to do so, why aren't we talking about them?